Relationship Diversity Podcast
Every relationship is as unique as you are. Relationship Diversity Podcast aims to celebrate, question, and explore all aspects of relationships and relationship structure diversity. Together, we’ll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships. We’ll ask challenging and transformational questions, like: Who am I? What do I really want in my relationships? Am I in this relationship structure because it’s all I know or is it really the fullest expression of who I am? Being curious, having courage to look within, and asking these important questions creates the space for joy-filled, soul-nourishing relationships. Your host and guide, Carrie Jeroslow is an International Best-Selling Author, Conscious Relationship Coach, and Intuitive. Through this podcast, she helps to normalize discussions about all different kinds of relationship structures from soloamory to monogamy to polyamory, and everything in between. This is a space of inclusivity and acceptance. The time is NOW to shift the conversation to a new paradigm of conscious, intentional, and diverse relationships.Join in as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become.
Relationship Diversity Podcast
Ep. 122: What Monogamous Couples Can Learn from Swingers to Transform Love and Intimacy with Lauren Hayes
Episode 122:
What Monogamous Couples Can Learn from Swingers to Transform Love and Intimacy with Lauren Hayes
In this episode, I interview lifestyle coach Lauren Hayes about her new book on the swinging lifestyle and what monogamous individuals can learn from non-monogamous relationships. Lauren shares her journey into the swinging lifestyle with her husband, the challenges they faced, and lessons they learned—ranging from the importance of self-expression and emotional sovereignty to the significance of loving oneself more than one's partner. The conversation highlights how these lessons can be universally applied to enhance all types of relationships, emphasizing that non-monogamous relationships require a high level of self-awareness, communication, and commitment.
Connect with Lauren:
Website | Work with Lauren
00:00 Introduction to Swinging and Self-Expression
01:41 Introducing Lauren Hayes and Her Journey
04:13 Lauren's Personal Experience with Swinging
09:56 Defining Swinging and Its Misconceptions
18:56 Exploring the Lessons from Non-Monogamy
28:19 Emotional Sovereignty: Owning Your Reactions
29:11 Loving Yourself More in Relationships
29:51 Conscious People Pleasing: A New Perspective
31:53 Self-Expression and Finding Your Voice
35:42 The Importance of Self-Awareness
36:44 Pleasure as a Practice: Embracing Joy
37:54 Emotional Sovereignty Revisited
48:50 Navigating Conflict and Emotional Vulnerability
50:02 Conclusion and Resources
This is Relationships Reimagined.
Join the conversation as we dive into a new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.
✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️
Get Your Free Relationship Diversity Guide
Connect with me:
YouTube
Get my book, “Why Do They Always Break Up with Me? The Ultimate Guide to Overcome Heartbreak for Good
Podcast Music by Zachariah Hickman
Please note: I am not a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, or social worker. I am not attempting to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any physical, mental, or emotional issue, disease, or condition. The information provided in or through my podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment provided by your own Medical Provider or Mental Health Provider. Always seek the advice of your own Medical Provider and/or Mental Health Provider regarding any questions or concerns you have about your specific circumstance.
In the swinging atmosphere you're flirting, you might be wearing the skimpiest outfit you own, you might be wearing lingerie People dress to their comfort level. That's the point and you can smile and flirt with whomever you want, and there's no expectation. And so you can self-express, you can say what you want. Not only you can, but you must, and it's respected. And so this allows a freedom of expression, sexual self-expression. And let me tell you there is not one woman that I have met that hasn't said that when I got in touch with my sexual side, my whole life changed.
Carrie Jeroslow:Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Keri Jaroslow. Bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow:Today I'm talking with lifestyle coach Lauren Hayes about her new book detailing the lessons she's learned from swinging, also known as the lifestyle. I feel the lessons she explores are really life lessons, one that can enhance every aspect of your life. This is a really powerful conversation and I had so many aha moments from her reflections and wisdom. But first a little about her. Lauren Hayes is a relationship coach specializing in supporting ethically non-monogamous ENM couples, including swingers in the ENM Curious. Trained in both life and relationship coaching, she helps couples navigate and engage the swinging and non-monogamous community in the healthiest of ways. She holds the perspective that non-monogamous relationships share the same foundations of any healthy relationship. However, they need to operate at a higher level of health to accommodate the additional complexities. Her approach aims to help couples build their ideal relationship, regardless of whether or how many others it includes. She also brings personal experience to her coaching. Having been married for 19 plus years and swingers for the last five plus years, she offers coaching and practical advice grounded in her own life, as well as professional training. Let's get into the conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow:Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I've got Lauren Hayes with me. Lauren Hayes is a swinging lifestyle coach and I'm really excited about this conversation because she has written a book and it is tailored towards monogamous people and what monogamous people can learn from non-monogamous people, and I always talk about the lessons that I've learned in my relationship structure and what I continue to learn, and you also hear me a lot of times in this podcast going through the things that I am currently learning. But as I read through Lauren's book, I learned so much about the swinging lifestyle, things I didn't know, things I thought I knew that were myths that were debunked through her book, and so we're going to go into that more on today's episode. But first, lauren, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on.
Lauren Hayes:Hi, thank you for having me.
Carrie Jeroslow:I'm excited to be here. We're going to have a juicy conversation all about your book, but first I would love for you to introduce yourself. Tell people about yourself and how you got into the swinging lifestyle.
Lauren Hayes:My husband and I have been married for nearly 20 years now and we've been non-monogamous and mostly swinging for six. So we were 14 years along in our marriage when this came up. Now it does take a little bit of a flashback. So when we had really small kids, I was approached by a friend of a friend who was polyamorous and we had always connected at parties. And he approached me another time to say he'd like to get to know me better me too. So we met for coffee and then he said are you polyamorous? Well, actually he said have you read the book Sex at Dawn?
Carrie Jeroslow:Seems to be so many people's introduction to it.
Lauren Hayes:I know. And so I said no, I haven't. And he said, well, you guys give off the polyamorous vibe. And I was like, interesting, and this was really my first learning about it and I was fascinated. So I asked a thousand questions. I went home I told my husband this conversation. He had a thousand questions for me which obviously I had only just learned them and we were not interested in doing it and it wasn't appealing to us in that way. But what it did do is it brought this energy for like a week, because we had always had really good sex. But it was just like this spark for a week or a week and a half of like intensely good sex. And so we were like, oh, what is that about? Well, never we had small children. I was not in a space of considering that and had never considered that. Honestly, I consider that my real introduction to the whole non-monogamy world.
Lauren Hayes:Then fast forward a bunch of years and we have children that are taking care of themselves a little bit more. They were actually 10 and 12 when we started. But I was just walking through the room one night and he was like I feel like there's something more and I knew he was talking about our relationship somehow, and I freaked out, which is, I think, super normal and I would say it was probably like a mild freak out, but it was. Am I not enough? Are we not happy? What's happening here? And so he didn't really know either. He's I don't really know either. I was like do you want a girlfriend? Cause that was the only model we knew. And he was like I don't think I want a girlfriend, I just feel like there's something more. And I had said something funny at the time which is only funny with a lot of healthy learning through the year which was like if you get a girlfriend, I'm getting a boyfriend. I'm like I don't even know if I want one, but I will get one if you get one.
Carrie Jeroslow:Tip for tat been there, done that.
Lauren Hayes:And so now we can really laugh about that and I would say him not knowing what he wanted was very helpful, and that is something that I discourage people from doing too much research about it before they approach their partners. I'm like, if you're curious, bring it up now when you're just super curious because it's nice to explore together and not feel like your partner has it all figured out for you, because those are very different propositions. Do you want to explore this with me? Do you want to get curious with me? Versus here, I think I know what we would like.
Carrie Jeroslow:That's a really great point. That's a really great point.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, and so we had some awkward weeks of figuring this out and conversations and, honestly, the ethical sluts helped us a lot. The book we started reading that chapter by chapter during our date nights and getting clear on what the menu was like, what is non monogamy and what are the choices and what does some of these things look like and what are the things we would have to be thinking about and how to move forward. And I say that this conversation between the first I think there's something more and our first swinger club was a couple months. That can be years for people. That's just how it worked out for us. And then we really liked it so we got into swinging quite quickly too, and then I would say we identified with it pretty quickly and it became a big part of our lives pretty quickly. But I always tell people I see couples that that is a five-year process, so there's no pressure to like. I'm curious about this and now we have to do it.
Lauren Hayes:It can be a conversation for a really long time. So anyway, that's how we got into it and I have always been into personal development, personal growth. I would say most of my adult life that was my side hobby and around COVID, not surprising, I was in marketing and I was like I don't really think I want to do this anymore, and so that's when I went into my coach training and relationship coach training and then combined all those things into lifestyle training and so it's been great. That was something that now I can be like I wish we had this, but Right, right.
Carrie Jeroslow:Many times we fill the void that we wish we had.
Lauren Hayes:Yes, totally, which I feel like this book maybe does for me, is highlights the things that you might want to be thinking about. This book is not targeted at people who want to become non-monogamous. I actually say in the beginning of the book here you get to learn all the lessons without even becoming non-monogamous. You're welcome. Because my point is these are universal lessons. Every human and every human in relationship can relate to these lessons, lessons, or, if they don't, might want to be thinking about these lessons. So that's really the purpose of the book for me, yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:And I want to go into what those lessons are in a moment. And I want to ask you could you define swinging from your perspective, Because I hear it talked about in different ways and I'm curious about how you would define it and all the different ways that it could manifest.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, I would love to do that with you in particular, because I've been going on a lot of vanilla podcasts to talk about this and here's how I define it and I would love your feedback on it. So, under the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy, I say you have everything from polyamory, which is where people are looking for love, falling in love, emotionally committed relationships, to swinging, which is we're in it for sex and friendship, and I think the definition sex and friendship is already new for people because they're like oh wait, what friends definition sex and friendship is already new for people because they're like oh wait what friends?
Lauren Hayes:Because people equate swinging with sex only, and this is the biggest misconception and a lot of misconceptions actually fall out from that main misconception when it's really much more about the community than it is about the sex.
Lauren Hayes:And what I often say is people might come for the sex but they stay for the community because we really operate and you and I have talked about this.
Lauren Hayes:There are so many levels of connection between hi, how are you and I'm in love with you, and non-monogamy operates within all those. Well, swinging in particular operates in I'm going to do very intimate things with you and I'm going to have sexual relations with you and we can have a deep friendship. But it's not going to go beyond that, which is interesting because in some ways that's difficult for people to grasp and in other ways we live in a culture of casual sex also, so it's always these paradoxes, but that really is where we operate. And even my husband and I were like we didn't know that friendship and sex could live so closely together, and so we had what we consider now silly conversations in the beginning of like how many times can we see a couple before it gets too serious? And now we have friends that we've had for years and this plays out in so many different ways and something I shared with you that I think is surprising for people a lot of people in the swinging community do not have sex with other people.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah Well, this debunks so many things that, before I started having conversations with people, this is a consistent message that I have heard over and over again that it is about the sex and it is a lot, and for some people, mostly about the community, about friendship. It is a very consistent message which goes against. Maybe I don't know four or five years ago, my perception of what swinging was was like just big orgies, and I think everyone does this right With anything they don't know. They just zero in on what they think it is and then that's all there is. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted you to talk about swinging in all the different, varied ways that it could look, because I think there is a lot of ways. And what you said about connection and friendship and not everyone has sex, that's like a huge debunker right there.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, there are as many versions of swinging as there are polyamory. So you know I touched on this. We are actually one community. We are choosing different ways to practice, and so swingers have all the choices within whatever their boundaries are. Polyamorous people have choices within whatever their boundaries are, and there is this tension that we'll talk about another time between the groups, but we're all doing the same things. It's just that a lot of people think we're just like running around rampantly having sex with everyone, and even within our own community there is that misperception. So it is interesting, and something I say often and half joke about is a lot of people come with the fear of that they're going to be expected to have sex with anyone and everyone, and then the half joke is that some people come with the hope that they can have sex with anyone and everyone.
Lauren Hayes:Both perspectives yeah but not true and it is a learning for those people who think that it is going to be that for sure. And I talked to someone recently because there are not a lot of statistics in the world of non-monogamy because it's not known, people don't even fess up to being non-monogamous, especially swinging. But I talked to someone who's been organizing events for 20 years and he said he feels confident in saying that probably 50% or more at any given large swinger event, that 50% are not playing with other couples. Yeah, that's huge, yeah, and it's very different than what people think.
Carrie Jeroslow:Definitely and it can look so different. Swinging can encompass a couple playing with another person, or a couple playing with another couple, or going to a club or experiencing something with your partner, but in a club amongst other people, like. There's so many different ways, and I think that someone who's trying to wrap their mind around something that they don't know will automatically go to the one thing they think it is and say that is all that it is.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, and you bring up a really interesting point. So if a monogamous couple goes to a swinging club and they only have sex with each other and let other people watch, are they really even non-monogamous?
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, I don't know. What do you think?
Lauren Hayes:I say they are not. So it's interesting I have this debate with a lot of people because even if you're inviting one other person in your relationship and I will call that sexual adventure, and so I actually often will suggest to people who are looking for a third to leverage the lifestyle community, because I see so many couples like we really want to do a threesome and we're out at just a regular bar trying to pick someone up and I'm like, oh gosh good luck.
Carrie Jeroslow:That's a recipe for disaster right.
Lauren Hayes:So many disasters that could happen in there and it might be great. But so in leveraging that community, the expectations are understood, people are there for the same reason, all the different things we know, the conversations to have, and so all those things make it really safe. Now, if you have the sexual adventure and that's it, and maybe you see that person again, maybe you do it with somebody else, maybe it was just that one fantasy you wanted to play out. Now, are you really non-monogamous because you had some sexual adventure? I would say no, because I think there's a little bit of identifying that goes with non-monogamous. And I have friends I love their term that they use.
Lauren Hayes:They say they have an open bedroom but they don't really consider their relationship open, and I love that distinction. So you and I are talking in the same language, that we're all defining this for ourselves. And, by the way, swingers don't even like to call themselves swingers. A lot of polyamorous people don't even like to call themselves polyamorous. A lot of people that I meet are like well, we're polyamorous, or we're mostly polyamorous, but everybody has that little but like. But we do it in our own way, but we have this own thing.
Carrie Jeroslow:And it's like, of course you do, because that's what we're all doing Right, which is why I love the idea of relationship diversity. Yeah, we're doing it in our own way. I've done so many episodes on labels, and where I think labels help is they help us find community, but they also keep us stuck and feeling like we don't do things right or we should be doing them another way. There's a lot of shame in labels. There's a lot of expectations, and so finding a balance of, okay, I'm going to find some kind of label to find my community, but then I'm going to allow myself the freedom to be and show up in this space however I want, and I think that that could really bridge the swinging and the polyamorous and all the in-between that would fall into a non-monogamous label, and it doesn't really matter what anyone does, as long as it's filled with consent and clarity of needs, desires and priorities and values.
Carrie Jeroslow:It's such an interesting conversation and so much to be had really with it, because I think you and I are both aligned in that we're trying to heal the divisiveness that we've seen, even in this non-monogamous community and really in relationships overall any divisiveness between monogamous, non-monogamous. Just do what is right for you. And if you don't know, then do your own introspection and reflection to understand what it is that you want, knowing that that could change at any time and that's okay. That's okay, like we're always growing and evolving and our needs are changing, and so you've been in the lifestyle you've been swinging for six years. What has been your evolution in the?
Lauren Hayes:lifestyle. I have seven chapters that tell you exactly what my evolution was. Oh good, I love it.
Carrie Jeroslow:What a perfect segue. Yes, let's go into your book. Why don't you explain about your book and then we'll go into the sections and the lessons that you have learned?
Lauren Hayes:So the title isn't a hundred percent landed, but it's going to be something around seven lessons on life and love from a non-monogamist and, as you mentioned, it applies as much to a monogamist as a non-monogamist. I think non-monogamists will read this in a way of like are these the lessons I have learned? And if not, maybe they're coming and I think a monogamist can read it. So one of the points that I make is if you think you have a great relationship, great. And if you don't, these might be some things that are holding you back.
Lauren Hayes:Because that's the whole thing about non-monogamy, and I'm sure you'll agree we go into non-monogamy and you better go into non-monogamy, thinking you have a very solid and secure relationship, and so you go in feeling like it's great, and then right away it gets better and you're like, oh, it even got better.
Lauren Hayes:And why does it get better? Because of all the communication and all these different things that we're going to go into, because our relationships are getting a workout at all times by inviting all this complexity, and so that's where we find our weaknesses. If you're not putting yourself out there and it does not have to be in relationship or sex with other couples it it means putting your relationship out there and working it in some way, and a lot of that comes out, hopefully, in the chapters is that these are just the things that might improve your relationship if they haven't been thought about or tested. And you know what For a lot of us and this applies to monogamous and non-monogamous unless it gets tested, you know why raise that issue. Oh yeah, there's enough stress in life. Just talking about things can bring you so much closer, and that's why non-monogamous couples do feel an improvement right away, because we're start talking about a lot of things that maybe we've avoided talking about for a while.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, yes, which can also bring up challenges with my relationship. My marriage is like we have young kids. We're just like trying to survive, let alone have a time to talk about the things that are really going on within us. So I see that it is really easy to coast, and to coast from a place of needing to survive. So starting to talk about these things. You are a coach and I know you specifically angle your coaching towards swinging, but also relationship. You are relationship trained and when coming up with these things and starting to have these conversations, I think that it is very normal for a closeness to happen, but also for challenges to come up as well, as you're starting to self-reflect and learn all these things that are going on with you that maybe you buried under.
Lauren Hayes:And I think that's an important point. I am relationship trained. The training I did is Gottman level one Gottman.
Lauren Hayes:Now, Gottman, if anybody knows, is monogamous relationship training First. There is no non-monogamous relationship training that exists. You and I might have to work on that Two. I believe strongly that a healthy relationship is a healthy relationship. The Gottmans have been doing decades of research on what makes up a healthy relationship. That would be strange for us to come along and say, well, ours are totally different. They're not different, it's just that ours have to operate at a healthier level in order to invite the complexity in that we are doing.
Carrie Jeroslow:Can you just a little bit for people who don't know anything about Gottman. That is very big in the relationship, specifically relationship coaching world, but can you explain a little bit about who they are and their foundational beliefs?
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, so John Gottman is a researcher and then his wife, julie, is. She does more of the practicality, but we're going to take that research and we're going to put it into real life. And amazing team, because they're also married, which is beautiful. And I'll say one of the probably the most basic premises is I have this house. It's a literal house, which is a sound relationship house and it has all the different pieces. So the pillars, for example, are trust and commitment, and then the foundation is friendship, and then there's all these different pieces and they've done decades of research to come up with this model of a healthy relationship and it absolutely applies to all relationships, maybe even especially ours. And I think the trust and commitment pillars, like these structural pillars, are a really interesting conversation.
Lauren Hayes:To start with, because I think from the outside, a lot of monogamous couples will say we are less committed in our relationships because we must be looking for somebody else or unhappy in our current relationship or whatever those big myths are.
Lauren Hayes:And I actually assert that we might be a little bit more committed.
Lauren Hayes:And when I say more to the relationship, because this is a little soapbox, I'll be quick. I think, in our misunderstandings of monogamy, the way that a lot of us have been raised in monogamy is that we commit to a person and I'm with that person, no matter what, and that, no matter what, can get very unhealthy, because if you're committed to that person, no matter what, that really opens the door for being treated in all kinds of ways, staying in a very unfulfilling relationship. Now, if you're committed to the relationship and you're both committed to the relationship, that's where the beauty happens, and being solely committed to a relationship is going to highlight that very quickly if your partner is not equally committed to the relationship. And so in non-monogamy, because we're always testing our relationships in this way I use the analogy in the book of taking our relationship to the gym and so we are committed to acknowledging the cracks that we find in the foundation of this house and we're committed to fixing them almost constantly, to doing the work, doing the work.
Carrie Jeroslow:So I think non-monogamy in all its different forms is really having its time right now. There's a whole new awareness and popularity and I think, without that aspect of committing to do the work, whether it's the work to the relationship, to a relationship, self-work, looking at the cracks within ourselves and the beliefs because really I think to be successful, whatever successful means to you in non-monogamy is to question everything. You have to be in a space of questioning and having the courage to really look at yourself, which is a lot of what you talk about in this book. So much is about the relationship that one has with themselves, and I'd love for you to go into that more, if you could maybe go over all of the lessons. And then there are a couple that I really want to hone in on.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, okay. So that's the number one. It's called create your own damn life, and this is just the idea that that's. What we're here for is creating our own lives in all areas choosing our career, choosing where we want to live, choosing who I marry, how we want to raise our kids, how our relationship looks. This is just part of it. A lot of us haven't considered questioning that part because we grew up in this just very strong one message culture. But that's what I want people to do. I'm not looking to recruit anyone over to non-monogamy. I just want you to be aware of it, because then, when you choose monogamy, you're consciously choosing monogamy, definitely. So that's the first one.
Lauren Hayes:The second lesson I call connection, connection, connection and fun, because this is something that I have to say in our community. This is why people come for the second stay for the community, because humans love connection and we do it all the time. We're out at clubs, we're meeting new people, we're socializing, we're creating these deep friendships, and we're doing it all the time, but it's not once a year when we go. Well, some people okay, by the way, that is a model Some people go to a swinging resort once a year and that's how they practice non-monogamy. And when you are part of the community, oftentimes people will stay more connected to the community because it's positive, sex positive, body positive, inclusive. There is some limit on the inclusivity we can talk about that and fun we dance and have fun and connect and all these things and that brings a richness to life.
Lauren Hayes:All of my monogamous friends who've been to a therapist, including myself. One of the first things that the therapist asks do you go out together, do you have fun together? Because that's that foundation of friendship, and so that's something I think that the non-monogamous community does excel at. And again, none of these things are things that necessarily have to be so Everybody can go out and connect and make new friends, but we do have to make efforts to do that. Lesson number three declare yourself emotionally sovereign. So that, I know, is something that we're going to talk about. I like to illustrate this best through an example. Emotional sovereignty is the difference between you made me feel jealous when you danced with that woman last night, versus when I saw you dancing with that woman last night, I felt really jealous. And it's owning our own reaction and removing the blame from our partners for making us feel all the different ways.
Carrie Jeroslow:We're going to go into that one more, because that's really up for me in many different ways, not only in my personal intimate relationships, but that's up for me a lot. So we're going to go more into that. I love it, okay, what?
Lauren Hayes:else Okay. So number four is love your partner, but love yourself a little bit more, and that goes directly to what you were saying about how important our relationship with self is and you never want to sell out yourself for your relationship, because that's ultimately also not good for your relationship With yourself or your partner.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, and as a recovering people, pleaser, oh my God, still recovering, amen, yeah, amen, sister. Yeah. And as a recovering people, pleaser, oh my god, still recovering. Amen, yeah, amen, sister. That is a total reframe rewrite, reprogramming.
Lauren Hayes:I'm continually going through yeah, and every time I think I really got the lesson. Then I'm like oh, I'm doing it again. But you know what, even in that, when you recognize you're doing it again and this is what I even tell people you don't have to stop people pleasing, you just have to become a conscious people pleaser. So in that moment, when you're like I'm doing it again, you'd be like you know what I'm going to choose to people, please, right now.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yes.
Lauren Hayes:Because that's still checking in with yourself, it's still putting yourself first.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yes, and I will say also it's always great when your partners are aware of those kinds of things. Because, just as a little reminder, I will go into people pleasing of oh my God, it's me, I'm sorry I did this. And just a little like okay partner saying, okay, you're doing this, Just be aware. And then I can go oh, I got to snap out of this and really make the conscious choice, because that people pleasing comes from a fear, a fear of, oh God, they're going to leave me because I'm not the person that they think I should be, or something like that.
Lauren Hayes:And that's what I mean by the conscious people pleasing. I had a client who, okay, so there's like a term and I assume this happens. This is used more in swinging, but I don't know about taking one for the team. We're going to go out with this couple. I'm not that attracted to this person, but I'm going to take one for the team because we want to play with them as a couple. So I had a client that was like I love taking one for the team. She's like I love watching my husband so much with these other people that I don't mind. And then I was like, yeah, that's consciously people-pleasing, I love that. I know and this goes back to the thing that there's no absolutes, because everyone's always we should never take one for the team. She's like I love taking one for the team. And I'm going to what am I going to say? That's wrong, no, right.
Carrie Jeroslow:Right, that's almost like watching your partner have sex with someone else. It's compersion. I love that my other partner is experiencing this joy and I'm going to because that feels really good to me take one for the team.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, and it reframes taking one for the team. It's not like she's over there, she's enjoying taking one for the team. Yeah, yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, I love that. Okay, so love your partner, but love yourself more.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, then self-expression and finding your voice. So this takes on a couple things. So if you're going to create your own damn life and you're going to create your own damn relationship and you're going to create all the things, guess what? You're going to have to say those things out loud. And this means you're in bed with a partner for the first time and you're going to tell them what you like. It's voice down to that level, and it's also to the level that we're talking about creating our own life. And what I say all the time is we're not always going to get what we want, but first you have to know what you want and second, you have to say it out loud.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah.
Lauren Hayes:And if you never say it out loud for sure, you're not getting it.
Carrie Jeroslow:Absolutely. That's such a great lesson and that has been a big journey for me, because my voice was shut down when I was 12 years old and at least that was how. Something that happened between my dad and I that was how it landed in me was like a shutting down of my voice. So that's one lesson that I can really say I am continually learning is this ability to say what I want and be heard and have it be honored. That was it. It's been a beautiful growth that's not only helped me in my relationships, but it's helped me in every aspect of my life.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, yes, and this is something that is very I don't know. Again, I don't speak in absolutes, but in non-monogamy. These are all the lessons that we take into the rest of our lives. These are not lessons to operate in non-monogamy, these are life lessons that are going to affect you in every area. And also, you say shutting down your voice. That's very related to the people pleasing aspect, and women in particular are at risk for keeping our voices quieter, I would say. And then the next level of self-expression that I talk about is sexual self-expression.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah.
Lauren Hayes:Because it's very tight, and what I love watching is this progression of. I think we have this idea from our culture that we live in, from the dating culture that maybe we experienced as single people, and I so want to think this is changing, but I don't have a pulse on that. So I think back 20, 30 years to that time and we all bring those ideas into the, especially the swinging world, or probably the especially the swinging world, or probably the polyamory world too, where you're meeting couples, meeting other people, and then this community is so different and so you can self-express, you can say what you want. Not only you can, but you must, and it's respected.
Lauren Hayes:And on the sexual freedom part, I always use this example of like when I was in my 20s and single, if I smiled at the wrong person in a bar, they might be following me around for the rest of the night because I showed any interest in them whatsoever, and so this is where women get a little quiet. And so now, in this especially, I'll say this the swinging atmosphere, you're flirting, you might be wearing the skimpiest outfit you own, you might be wearing lingerie, people dressed to their comfort level, that's the point, and you can smile and flirt with whomever you want, and there's no expectation, and so this allows a freedom of expression, sexual self-expression. And then this gets into a whole topic, and this is a freedom of expression, sexual self-expression. And then this gets into a whole topic, and this is actually one of the other chapters about addressing the shame and all the different layered complexities we have with our sexual selves.
Carrie Jeroslow:Tell you there is not one woman that I have met. That hasn't said that when I got in touch with my sexual side, my whole life changed.
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, amen, yeah. So it's beautiful. It's a beautiful process to watch. Okay, then the next one is about self-awareness, because a lot of people ask me what it does take to be in non-monogamy, and especially with swinging. They're like do I need a big cock? Do I need a boob job? Do I need to shave my body? I'm like, well, actually you just need self-awareness. This is what's going to serve you the most. Now I heard this really weird statistic one time that 80% of people think about because it's 80, it's made up. 80% of statistics are made up anyway.
Lauren Hayes:Okay, so, 80% of people think they're self-aware but they're not, which, of course, in my personality I was like, well, am I one of those people? But it is so important, and everyone does think they're self-aware, and that's going to get tested for you right away, Even in that simple sentence that I shared about emotional sovereignty and when I saw that I became jealous is awareness? So that's the thing that's really going to serve people the most.
Lauren Hayes:And then the last one is pleasure as a practice which does tie into that sexual self-expression, allowing pleasure, creating a new relationship with pleasure and your pleasure, and asking for pleasure. And then that chapter even starts to go into the connection between the divine and pleasure. It can be life-changing.
Carrie Jeroslow:It really can, and there's so much shame around pleasure and enjoyment, oh my God.
Lauren Hayes:And I talk about all pleasure.
Carrie Jeroslow:Exactly Right.
Lauren Hayes:It's not just sexual pleasure, it's our culture has a weird paradox again, even with the idea of pleasure. It's like, on one hand, you should buy all these things to bring you pleasure and, on the other hand, maybe you shouldn't be putting pleasure as one of your priorities, right?
Carrie Jeroslow:Confusion. Yeah, this sounds amazing and I'm going to encourage everyone out there to go to get this book. As soon as you finish listening to this podcast, I'm going to have a link to get more information about it, because really, these are life lessons. Yes, they will enhance your relationships intimate relationships, friendships but they really are life lessons, and with that I want to go into emotional sovereignty.
Carrie Jeroslow:I want to go deeper into that, because this has been really up for me, especially as a people pleaser. Wanting everyone to be okay that was the role that I played as a teenager and a young adult is I just want everyone to be okay, because if everyone will be okay, then my life will feel more stable. And really that enables people to not take emotional sovereignty. So I'm taking it from the other direction. It enables people to say like, oh right, you could do something different and affect my emotional landscape at this moment, but also expecting other people and the outside world to make me feel better. We're recording this right after the US election and it's so high up for me that there's so much of my emotional stability or instability that I place on the world around me instead of finding it within. So you talk about it specifically in terms of relationships and how you've learned about it from the non-monogamous lifestyle. But can you go into more of some of what your thoughts are on this?
Lauren Hayes:Yeah, so I'll share. The first time I learned about the concept of emotional sovereignty and and I share this story in the book, but I was at just a personal development seminar. It wasn't anything to do with lifestyle and and they brought up the term and I was so annoyed by the term. I'm like what is that mean? And the word sovereignty, spelled, is kind of crazy, and so my brain really latched onto that. I was like emotional, what, like, what is that word? And so looking back on it, it's really funny how much my ego was like we're not going to understand that concept and it took me a couple of days. I was angry, I was really angry about it.
Lauren Hayes:So, then, when they explained the other side of it, they're like the other side of emotional sovereignty is being a victim, because everything is happening to you. And right then I was like, oh yeah, I understand it and I do that. And it's interesting because as I'll just keep calling us the people pleaser and I also call it in the book some codependent tendencies when you feel emotionally responsible for everybody in your life, you assume they have that same responsibility back to you and that's just a recipe for disaster Everyone else being responsible for everyone else. And I think it's a tricky topic for people and I think, well, I'll save that for a second. But here's the ideal scenario that happens when we all become emotionally sovereign, which is I'm responsible for my feelings, you're responsible for your feelings.
Lauren Hayes:Now, the one thing I always want to make super clear to people is I'm not talking about dealing with them on your own. I am not. I'm talking about owning your emotions, understanding or at least trying to understand your emotions and then sharing with whoever with that is appropriate. It might be your partner, it might be your best friend, it might be your therapist, but you're owning that and the other person is not making you feel that way, and if it's something they did that had you feel a certain way, and when you share it with them, it's exactly that Like I've seen you dance with a hundred women and it didn't bother me why that time did it bother me? And so those are the great conversations you get to have with your partner, who now is not defensive because they're getting blamed for making you feel that way and it's just an inquiry.
Lauren Hayes:Now, all of this, I also want to say, requires a great deal of emotional maturity that none of us have sometimes. Yeah. So I think, as a coach, I always like to remind that we talk about some of these very ideal scenarios and that we all, including us coaches, fail on them. And I have the nights where I'm like you made me feel, and then it takes me 12 hours to be like, yeah, I hurt myself, I apologize for that.
Lauren Hayes:Okay, and in an ideal world of emotional sovereignty, I've got me, you've got you. I know that if there's something up with you, you're going to come to me. Vice versa, if there's something up with me, I'm going to come to you. So I am off the hook of worrying about you at all times. To where are you? How you feeling, or like assuming how you feel, or interpreting how you feel, because I know you've got you, and then this is a whole, nother level of trust. I can trust that you've got you, I can trust that I've got me and we're gonna come together whenever that's necessary and I feel supported and safe. And I've got me and you've got you.
Carrie Jeroslow:It's so empowering, so empowering, it's so empowering. And, yes, the trust of that and release of the codependency, because I've experienced varying levels of that in all of my relationships not all of them, but like the varied kinds of relationships, friendships, family parenting, parenting, oh God yeah. And especially, there's just so much programming out there that is a victim programming. So, again, something that will require a lot of self-reflection to look at all of the programming that says I've learned that I'm responsible for your feelings and you're responsible for mine, the world is responsible for mine. I find that in the worst of it, when I'm really struggling with this codependency, I'm riding an emotional rollercoaster. I'm up and down and up and down, and it's like when I can come into my emotional sovereignty and find groundedness, there is a calmness, there is this stability that is so empowering I know I've used that word a lot, but it is it's empowering and it's unwavering because I found it within myself.
Lauren Hayes:It ties into my spiritual beliefs, it can tie into a lot of spiritual beliefs and even though, like love ourselves a little bit more than our partner, in that we are divine beings and finding that divinity, that calmness, that centeredness within us is a big point.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, and again, let's look at what's going on in the US. How much is that going to serve us to find it within? It's going to make us more powerful. It's going to make us more effective, because when we're riding that emotional roller coaster we're so destabilized, we're just like I don't know where I am. One day I'm up, one day I'm down, and I think if we could all ground into our emotional sovereignty and whatever that is for us. And however we get that and it doesn't mean, like you said, that we have to be perfect all the time but to find grace and compassion, self-grace and self-compassion with ourselves, when we're not finding the ways in which we do our self-care to find that stability within us. And then again, the ways that we reflect, whether it is through journaling on ourselves, through meditation or through talking with a friend or a therapist that we can get clear on what is going on. And these are really powerful concepts that I think could create a better world.
Lauren Hayes:Absolutely, and then not sure which chapter I bring this in. I think a couple of places is that in non-monogamy people will say we got closer right away. Why? Because of communication. Well, this is an actual important part of what we call communication because that's a really vague term which is when I'm emotionally sovereign and I take a look, I'm feeling this way. This internal communication that's happening first is a part of that process and that's emotional transparency and getting really clear on how I feel about this thing and why I might feel about this thing.
Lauren Hayes:And here's another risk as a people pleaser you might relate this to I have to figure everything out here before I bring it to anybody else. That's also not true. That's the part about being in relationship, and so I never want people to misinterpret this emotional sovereignty message as you are a pillar on all alone, because that is the opposite of what I'm trying to say. So once you do that internal, then you take it to your partner or whomever I'll just say the external person and you share. And that's emotional vulnerability. Because now you're like here's how I'm feeling and it might be embarrassing about how you feel, you might not understand how you feel, but I'm going to share it with you, because I'm struggling with it and I want support with this.
Lauren Hayes:And then that vulnerability piece then, when your partner is able to be there for you and just talk about this and if they're not being blamed for it, by the way, there's a much better chance they are going to be there for that conversation. So that's the emotional vulnerability piece. So all these things, the sovereignty, the vulnerability, the transparency and the transparency piece is important because it's here's. I know how I'm feeling and sometimes, in this codependent tendency way, we will say the way that we think it will best to be heard, instead of what our truth is. And now there is something to the right time, right place and a way to say it, and it still needs to convey your truth.
Lauren Hayes:There's so much in what you just said, because that is what makes people feel more closer right away and that's one of the benefits listed under non-monogamy is, feeling closer with your partner is because of that equation right there, not just communicating more, because we communicate all the time, but it's sharing more.
Carrie Jeroslow:Definitely. And I love what you say about not blaming the other person, because that, to me, is where the conflict comes in, because automatically, if someone says you did this to me, this is what I'm feeling and this is what I'm learning, and it automatically disarms me. It just automatically is like, oh right, we don't have to be in conflict, we could actually own what's going on with ourselves and come together in that sharing. Yes, and it really helps. Move that to another place, move the conflict.
Lauren Hayes:And this is the really shocking thing. It's okay if what you're sharing and what you're feeling is and what your truth is. It's okay if that does cause conflict.
Carrie Jeroslow:Oh, I love that, see, because I have such a relationship with conflict. God, I've talked about it so many times on this podcast you and I are the same person.
Lauren Hayes:I think, yes, I have all those same things. Oh my gosh. I will say that in seminars and stuff and you can hear half the room audibly gasp like, like what I what?
Carrie Jeroslow:This is, I think, another one of the hugest lessons I've had through all of this is that it's not about the conflict, it's about how you move through it and what you're learning from it. And so I grew up with like the first time I ever saw my parents fight. They were headed to divorce and they divorced. It was like the war zone. It was like from what seemed like a peaceful family environment to a war zone. I have so much programming that I'm unraveling and reprogramming about conflict and about how conflict is natural, normal and can be really connective instead of disconnected. So, wow, I love that you bring that up. Oh, lauren, this has been such a great conversation. I think you and I could talk for hours easily. Absolutely. We'll have to come back on and talk about some of the other things, but talk a little bit where people can find you, how people can connect with you If they're really feeling called to exploring the swinging lifestyle which is your specialty and they're wanting some coaching. How can people find you?
Lauren Hayes:Probably the easiest way is on my website, which is swinginglifestylecoachcom, and they can sign up for my newsletter there. I am not a spammy newsletter person, so people can be assured in that. But that's also where they can just keep track of me, what I'm doing, when my book is coming out, which is slated for 12-12. So it'll be something around there and I'm also easy to find because I'm swinging lifestyle coach everywhere. So that's what I am on Instagram, that's what I am on Facebook and YouTube and all the places. So I'm generally go by the same name.
Carrie Jeroslow:That makes it easy, and we're going to have all of your links in the show notes. So everyone, please connect with Lauren and garner all of the wisdom that she's sharing specifically in the book. I can't wait for this book. I've been fortunate enough to have an advanced reading and I think there is so much power in this, so I appreciate you and the work that you've done in the world, and everyone, please go connect with Lauren. Thank you so much for being here.
Carrie Jeroslow:Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast. Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my website, kerryjerislowcom, instagram or TikTok. Stay curious.
Carrie Jeroslow:Every relationship is as unique as you are. Are you wondering why you never seem to find lasting fulfillment in your relationships, or do you create the same kinds of relationship experiences over and over again? Can you never seem to find even one person who you want to explore a relationship with? Have you just given up hope altogether? If this sounds like you, my recent book why Do they Always Break Up With Me is the perfect place to start. The foundation of any relationship, whether intimate or not, is the relationship we have with ourselves. In the book, I lead you through eight clear steps to start or continue your self-exploration journey. You'll learn about the importance of self-acceptance, gratitude, belief shifting and forgiveness, and given exercises to experience these life-changing concepts. This is the process I use to shift my relationships from continual heartbreak to what they are now fulfilling, soul-nourishing, compassionate and loving. It is possible for you. This book can set you on a path to get there, currently available through Amazon or through the link in the show notes.
