Relationship Diversity Podcast
Every relationship is as unique as you are. Relationship Diversity Podcast aims to celebrate, question, and explore all aspects of relationships and relationship structure diversity. Together, we’ll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships. We’ll ask challenging and transformational questions, like: Who am I? What do I really want in my relationships? Am I in this relationship structure because it’s all I know or is it really the fullest expression of who I am? Being curious, having courage to look within, and asking these important questions creates the space for joy-filled, soul-nourishing relationships. Your host and guide, Carrie Jeroslow is an International Best-Selling Author, Conscious Relationship Coach, and Intuitive. Through this podcast, she helps to normalize discussions about all different kinds of relationship structures from soloamory to monogamy to polyamory, and everything in between. This is a space of inclusivity and acceptance. The time is NOW to shift the conversation to a new paradigm of conscious, intentional, and diverse relationships.Join in as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become.
Relationship Diversity Podcast
Ep. 118: Let’s Be Real with Our Relationship Experiences - Wisdom from Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers
Episode 118:
Let’s Be Real with Our Relationship Experiences: Wisdom from Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers
In this episode, I have a rich discussion with Evita Sawyers, a black, queer, non-monogamous educator, speaker, coach, and author. The conversation sheds light on the importance of emotions and personal growth within diverse relationship structures.
Evita shares her evolution from monogamy to non-monogamy, including her initial challenges and experiences with swinging and polyamory. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of flexibility, self-reflection, and emotional honesty in navigating non-monogamous relationships.
Evita highlights her book 'A Polyamory Devotional: 365 Daily Reflections for the Consensually Non-Monogamous,' offering daily reflections for any relationship type. The episode advocates for positive thinking, managing emotional energy, and inclusivity in relationships, encouraging listeners to explore their authentic choices without societal judgment. Practical insights into avoiding catastrophizing, the practice of self-compassion, and conscious connection over fear are also discussed.
Run, don’t walk to get Evita’s book!
A Polyamory Devotional: 365 Daily Reflections for the Consensually Non-Monogamous
Connect with Evita:
00:00 Embracing Our Emotions
00:49 Introduction to the Podcast
01:51 Guest Introduction: Evita Sawyers
02:28 Evita's Journey into Non-Monogamy
05:13 Navigating Non-Monogamous Relationships
09:20 Challenges and Realities of Polyamory
12:07 Evita's Polyamory Devotional
27:07 Reflections on Love and Courage
30:24 Overcoming Disconnection in Relationships
32:43 Embracing and Feeling Uncomfortable Emotions
40:35 Managing Anxiety and Catastrophic Thinking
52:03 Vision for the Future of Diverse Relationships
55:14 Conclusion and Ways to Connect
This is Relationships Reimagined.
Join the conversation as we dive into a new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.
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Podcast Music by Zachariah Hickman
Please note: I am not a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, or social worker. I am not attempting to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any physical, mental, or emotional issue, disease, or condition. The information provided in or through my podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment provided by your own Medical Provider or Mental Health Provider. Always seek the advice of your own Medical Provider and/or Mental Health Provider regarding any questions or concerns you have about your specific circumstance.
When we make our peace with the fact that we are emotional beings, that we have feelings, that feelings are part of our human experience and are a beautiful part of our human experience, even in the sad times, even in the challenging times. They're part of what makes us who we are as human beings. The more we embrace that and the more that we release shame, the more we get rid of this idea that there's a good or a bad way to feel and just accept it as, like I am, a human being having a human experience, and that human experience impacts me emotionally, I feel like the easier we're able to be at peace with our emotions. If you find you have a particular emotion that you're struggling to be at peace with, maybe just sit with it and go. I'm just going to wrap my arms around myself and just hold myself and hold that part of me that just needs to express and that just needs to feel and that just needs to move through the impact that the situation has had on me.
Carrie Jeroslow:Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Keri Jaroslow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow:Today I'm honored to talk with Evita Sawyers, an insightful, non-monogamous educator and author, about her new book and her perspectives on relationships. Her message is chock full of wisdom that's deeply enhanced my life and approach to relationships of all kinds. In this episode I read some passages from her book that have been particularly eyeopening for me, and then she talks about her inspiration and thoughts on them. This was an incredible conversation and I'm so excited to share it with you. But first a little about her, evita LaVita Loca-Sawyers. She, her is a Black queer, polyamory, non-monogamy educator, speaker, coach, content creator and author of a polyamory devotional. She's a subject of the documentary poly love and is passionate about helping people navigate the transition from monogamy to non-monogamy and avoiding the common beginner pitfalls. She's also the creator of today's polyamory reminder daily snippets of wisdom for living non-monogamously. She's been featured in several articles and podcasts, including Vice, yahoo, life and the Multiamory podcast, to name a few. Her voice is frank, candid, pragmatic and vulnerable. She's known for her balanced approach to polyamory concepts and for embracing her humanness as a non-monogamous person.
Carrie Jeroslow:Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I'm really honored and excited to have my guest today because I've been so awed by her book, which we're going to talk a lot about. Every single passage that I read gives me an aha moment and I'm so excited because we're going to actually read some of these passages and talk through them, talk about her inspiration and learn more about these concepts and ideas that just blew me away. So, with all that, I have Evita Sawyers with me. Evita is a non-monogamy educator, a speaker, a coach, a content creator and an incredible author and writer. Welcome, evita to the podcast.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Thank you so much for having me. I am very, very excited to have this conversation, especially after the last conversation that we had. I know this is going to be good.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yes, I'm so inspired by you and by the way that you educate about non-monogamy because it's so real and I appreciate that. Because non-monogamy is definitely having a moment which is exciting, and I think a lot of people are getting into it without a lot of knowledge, which we will get more into in a moment. But first I'd love to learn a little bit more about you, for you to introduce yourself to people who don't know anything about you, and we'll go from there.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Thank you. My name is Evita Sawyers. I'm known as EvitaLca Sawyers on Instagram, which is where most of my content is. I am a Black, queer, non-monogamous, divorced mother of three. I live in New Jersey and I have been non-monogamous now for a little over a decade. A little over a decade.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:My entry partner, which is what I call my ex-husband, who I entered into non-monogamy with. We started our non-monogamous journey in 2013 with swinging initially, and we did that for a little while. Swinging was very comfortable for me. It wasn't as comfortable for him. I don't know if he would identify as such, but I definitely do think that he's some version of a demisexual, and for those of you that don't know what a demisexual is, it's someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction until an emotional connection has been formed with a person, and so, while I don't know that, that's quite how he would identify, but he definitely needs a lot more to be sexual with people than what the swinging experience provided, because swinging is largely just about recreational sex. You usually go on to parties. You're hooking up with people on the spot. Occasionally, you might develop some friendships. We definitely had a group of people that we swung with, and so we got to know one another, but you're not really making these sort of deep, intimate bonds. Like I said, you may get friendships occasionally, but I don't think that provided the arena of safety that he needed. And so swinging was a challenge for him. It wasn't a challenge for me because I'm a slut. So I was like, yeah, this is great, I like having lots of sex and a variety of sex partners.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And we got introduced, actually, to the concept of polyamory at a swinger party. We went to a party this woman entered in with her boyfriend and then her husband came later on and we were mind blown, like. We were like whoa, that was our first experience with, which is so funny to me, but that was our first experience with anybody doing that. We were just like what that's a thing? And it was very appealing to him and it wasn't for me. I was like, yeah, no, you know, at that time I held the belief that sex was just the thing that you do with your body. Dogs do it, animals do it. It's a function of living organisms. But what makes you you? Your regard, your emotions, your mind, your thoughts, those are the things that really comprise who you are, and at that time I didn't want to share that with anyone. Obviously, I don't see it the same now. I have a different mindset about it, but at the time that's the way I saw it.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And so we tried polyamory for non-monogamy. I'll say it wasn't really polyamory, but we tried it for a little bit. He went on one date. I freaked out and we tabled it. I was just like, yeah, we're not going to do this.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And then we re-approached it, maybe about six months later, because, like I said, I'm queer and swinging afforded me the opportunity to have sex with women but not really have relationships with them, and I wanted that experience. So we decided to go into polyamory and shift to where now we were actually open to forming relationships with other people. And, ironically enough, normally when you get a couple that's comprised of a cisgender heterosexual male and a cisgender bisexual woman, usually what happens is they go into polyamory, looking for a third or the unicorn or triad experience. We did not because we were just like, yeah, there's no way that we're going to find a woman that we both like because we have such different tastes. And so I was like you go get your girlfriend, I'm gonna go get mine. And randomly went to a swinger party and met a woman that we both liked, and so our first polyamorous relationship was a triad, and it's actually the subject of Poly Love, the documentary, which is on Amazon. That relationship was that relationship, that first polyamorous relationship, and it was very volatile because none of us knew what we were doing and so that one ended about two years give or take into it, and then by that time we were just open. So I had various different types of relationships and so did he, and that lasted until 2020, which is when we separated and divorced.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And so maybe a couple of years before the pandemic, I was still teaching, I was speaking and talking about non-monogamy, I had done a couple of conferences where I presented, did on some podcasts, and I was known in the community for someone who would talk about the real stuff as it relates to polyamory. Because when I first got into non-monogamy, I joined a bunch of Facebook groups and stuff, because I was like man, I need community, I need people to talk to, I need to find people to date. So I joined all these online communities and what I noticed was, well, so many people talking about how great polyamory was and how much they enjoyed it and how wonderful it was and all these things like that, and I was like I am not having that experience at all. I was like, hey, this is hard, I am struggling. So I began to just talk about the fact that I was struggling because initially I was like, can I get a witness?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:It was so isolating, the struggles that I was having were so isolating, and so I was like, can I get a witness?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:It was so isolating, the struggles that I was having were so isolating, and so I was like is there somebody out here that's going through this? Because I'm over here feeling like something's wrong with me, because everybody's talking about how wonderful this space is and I'm just not having this experience of what is happening and I would get pushback. I remember the first post I made in a group I was asking about because at the time we were in a triad and the apartment that we lived in, the bed that we had, wasn't big enough for the three of us and so we would rotate when she would come and stay the night. We would rotate who slept on the couch. And I went in a group and I asked was it wrong for me to ask them on the nights that they had the bedroom by themselves. Is that they have sex? Could they keep it down? So I'm not privy to what was going on, because it was hard being outside in a room while they were having sex and, man, they jumped on that post.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:They called me controlling. I cried. I broke down crying because I'm struggling. I'm trying to figure out how to hold the space for this, but also I'm literally laying on the couch. I used to lay on the couch and I put my headphones and I had my music up and the highest settings so that way I didn't hear them If they were doing something. I just didn't want to know, because that's how challenging it was for me to process that, and I'm not one of those people that gets off on like hearing their partner doing things like that's not my jam. Totally love that if that's what it is for you, but that wasn't my jam. So I was like I'm not, I don't enjoy this, and so initially I got a lot of pushback, but I would get people that would jump in my DMs and be like I'm really glad you posted about that, because I went through that too and I didn't want to say anything.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:So, I was like, okay, so there are people out here that are having this experience. It was just being pushed and I get it. I understand why because we get so much ire as polyamorous people in general that I think we do want to present this image of it that it's all pristine and everybody's happy. But I'm like, but that's just not real. It's not real. This is challenging, it's frustrating at times. It's a learning curve when you're coming from monogamy to non-monogamy and I'm like why can't we talk about this If everybody out there is experiencing this? Why can't we talk about this? And so I began to get a reputation as just someone who would talk about the real stuff. And so people started seeking me out to speak and teach and the pandemic happened and I challenged myself to see if I could do one daily polyamory reminder or snippet of wisdom and post it and to see if I could get 365. Because I was like, if I can get 365 of these, and I'll comprise them and put them in a little devotional.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Many, many moons ago in a former life I was a very devout fundamental Christian and so I had these little devotionals that I really liked and that would have little scriptures and little passages about the scripture, and so I liked that idea, because I like the idea of having something that's like bite size, that you can read and reflect on, something that doesn't make you feel like you got to read it from start to finish, but you can pick it up anytime. You could just open to a page and experience something. You could read it once a day or once a week, and so I like that idea that it was like a book that offers wisdom, but also you could choose your own adventure for how you experienced it. And so the pandemic I'm posting and that's really where I began to explode, where people were like, oh, this person has something to say. And so now, here I am.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Today I published and released a polyamory devotional 365 daily reflections for the consensually non-monogamous and that came out in October of 2023. And, like I said, I also content create on Instagram. I do workshops. I presented at Southwest Love Fest. I'm on a number of podcasts, I've been featured in a couple of articles Vice different places, and I just really love talking about non-monogamy. I really love talking about relationships in general and helping people. I wanted to be the voice that I didn't have when.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:I was going through it, and that's really what made me continue to express, because I'm like people need compassion in this space as they're navigating this.
Carrie Jeroslow:That's what I was going to say is the book is. I know it's called a polyamory devotional, and it is really helpful for any relationship structure because so many of them are about the internal reflection. What is going on with me and I think that's really where any relationship starts is the relationship I have with myself, because I have people from all different relationship structures. Listen to this. I want you to know that this is helpful for you in any relationship structure, and there are many entries that are specifically targeted towards polyamory and non-monogamy that are incredibly helpful, and I agree with you. These are things I wish that I had for my first open relationship it's now 20 years ago. I feel like I would have had so much more intentionality and consciousness going into it.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:I have a lot of followers that are monogamous. I have people tell me that all the time that I'm monogamous and I follow you because it's just good relationship advice. And I tell people all the time that polyamory advice is just basic relationship principles on steroids. That's what I always say. There are some things that are polyamory specific. Obviously, a monogamous person is not asking a question. What do I do when my metamorph wants to stay an extra day and I want her to leave? But a lot of this stuff is just basic human relating. It really is.
Carrie Jeroslow:And no one does relationship course. We don't learn that in school. I think if we learned about how to relate in school, no matter what else we learn, that is such a fundamental skill that helps us in every aspect of our lives. I was going to ask you when you went over your history of relationships how long were you monogamous with your husband before you went into swinging?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:We were monogamous for nine, probably almost 10 years. It's actually funny. I always say that our non-monogamy journey started with a 2 Chainz song. 2 Chainz has a song called Birthday and there's a line in it that Kanye says he says y'all been together 10 years, you deserve a menage, especially if you put that BMW in her garage. And so we would joke because we were about being married for 10 years. And he would joke like I deserve a Minaj, and I was like, yeah, but you ain't bought me no BMW, so we would joke about that. So we were married for nine, almost 10 years, monogamously and very monogamously. So we weren't monogamish. We were very, very monogamous because we actually met in church and we met in a very, very fundamental Christian church and so we were very monogamous for, like I said, about nine years.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And really what sparked the movement into non-monogamy was I wanted to explore my queerness, which was something that I didn't get an opportunity to do because I knew, since I was maybe about 16, that I definitely wasn't fully straight. But then I joined the military and at that time in the military you could get put out for being gay. So it didn't really offer the freedom for me to explore that, because that was something I had to keep on the hush. And then shortly after that, I started going to the church where I met my husband and that church their credo was that homosexuality was a sin. And so at that point I was like, ok, like these drives, I have to stuff them down, I have to pray them away, all of that stuff. Obviously, it never happened, it never went away. It just didn't go away. And so our non-monogamous journey was born out of my desire to explore my queerness. And while I know there are lots of couples that if they have a queer wife, usually she's free to do whatever she wants with other people and the guy just stays monogamous to her I definitely know of some people who have that set up. But for me I was like, eh, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If I'm going to be exploring with other people, it never really crossed my mind to have that be just a me thing, just something that I did. I'm like if I'm doing it, he's going to do it too.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And we did go into non-monogamy briefly in the beginning, more when we were swinging with the desire to have a threesome. It's really where it came from is where it started. But the very first swing and party we went to, we went in with a set of rules. We were like OK, I was not allowed to sleep with any men, we were not allowed to kiss anybody and he was not allowed to give any woman oral sex. Those are the three rules that we went into the first week. By the end of the party they were all thrown out, violated everyone, which I don't recommend. I always tell people that's not a good. It worked out for us and we were fine, but like that. I don't recommend that as a practice. I feel like if you go into a party with rules, keep the rules and if you want to change them, do it after the party. Come back together and say, hey, I think I want to renegotiate those, but for us worked out and and I just found that, at least sexually at the time it really just wasn't a super big deal for me to conceptualize him being with other people Because, like I said, I enjoyed being with other people.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:I enjoy having variety of sexual partners and sexual experiences, and so I very much understood that drive and so it wasn't really challenging for me. I remember the first thing that with non-monogamous. That we did was we went to the strip club together and he got a lap dance and I was just like, all right, I didn't feel a lot of like oh, like, get off my man, you know, it wasn't like that. I was just like, okay, you know what, I'll get a lap dance and I'm going to go in the back and get mine. And so we were monogamous for about nine, almost 10 years, and in the last seven years of our relationship we were non-monogamous.
Carrie Jeroslow:It sounds like you went through several restructuring in terms of monogamous to swinging to non-monogamous, to polyamorous and that kind of I don't like to call it like renegotiation, but I guess, looking Rebranding, rebranding yeah, I like that better Rebranding of your relationship structure. How did that go? Was that different each time you did that?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Yeah. So I actually like renegotiation because even if, with a rebranding, you still have to come together to decide, okay, what are what do we want to rebrand as? And that has to be a collaborative thing. And a lot of the renegotiation and the rebranding was born out of changing needs. So we got into swinging.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Swinging worked well for me. It did not work well for him, it did not meet his needs. And then we got into non-monogamy. Like I said, it was a little touch and go, but then my needs changed. I'm like, okay, I've had enough sex with women and, yeah, it's nice, I would like to experience having a relationship with a woman. And so then that changed and that grew and so a lot of it was realizing.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:I tell people all the time not to come into non-monogamy with these very rigid ideas about what it is that you want, because, number one, you've never experienced it, so you don't know what you're going to land on. After you have an experience, you may do something and be like, oh my God, that was the best thing ever. Yeah, let's keep this, and you may do something to be like that's not for me and we need to shift things and that is going to change over time. It really is. And so as time went on and our needs began to change and we got exposed to different things and we really began to hone in on what we genuinely wanted, because that's another thing that happens in non-monogamy, that doesn't happen as much in monogamy. I know that there is a movement called conscious monogamy. I've heard of it, but we don't really practice monogamy in a conscious way.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Monogamy is very scripted. It's like, okay, you get together, you develop a relationship, you move in together, you have kids, you get married and you might move the order around a little bit, but large in part, there are these very succinct milestones in monogamy that aren't really super conscious or aren't very indicative of what people authentically may want to experience in a relationship, because you're told, this is what you want. So then you get into polyamory and now you're like, oh, I actually get to sit and reflect and think about what is genuinely fulfilling and valuable to me about relationships, and that changes over time. It really does. And so I try to tell people don't go in with this like we're going to be doing this, because I'm like, yeah, but your needs are going to change, your desires are going to change If you get exposed to new ideas, you're going to change and shift what you want, and so it's good to be flexible good to be flexible, absolutely.
Carrie Jeroslow:I talk about that a lot in the podcast, of even using myself as a representation of changing needs, priorities, values, when I was getting pregnant and having young kids, and then when the kids get older, and then I start to evolve myself and become into who I am, not who I was in my 20s or 30s, but who I am in my 50s, and it's just ever changing. And I think it's important to stay current about where am I in this moment, which brings me to your book, because your book has such amazing prompts to do just that to sit and reflect, because you have one entry for every day of a year, 365 days, and you have a heading at the top that talks about what the entry is going to be about. You go into it a little bit more and then, at the end, give an incredible prompt that leads to reflection, self-reflection. So I would love to go in and read a few that I picked out, and I want to tell everyone out there to run right now. Well, finish listening to this episode and then go right into the show notes and click on this book, because I'm going to have a link to go right to this book, because I have four picked out, but I could barely pick out four. There were so many, because this is really the work.
Carrie Jeroslow:People get into non-monogamy polyamory swinging and they think it's just going to be like I don't know. A lot of people are doing it, I just want to do it. If you go to it with more intention, attention and consciousness, you have much more of a chance to feel a sense of fulfillment, even when it's hard, and that's what I love about so many of these entries. So, are you ready, evita? Can we go into reading them? I was going to read them and then have you talk about them. How?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:does that sound Okay?
Carrie Jeroslow:I love that. Okay, I'm going to start with this one. This one just gave me chills. Okay, this is day 23. And it says showing up to love and relationships fully can be scary when you've been hurt in the past. When you've been hurt in the past, remind yourself that you're interacting with different people than the ones who hurt you in the past and that you are a different person now. Move in courage. That was the heading, and then I'm going to read the next part. This is from your voice.
Carrie Jeroslow:This is something I consider as I move forward in new relationships. Something will remind me of an old hurt from a former relationship and I'll want to shut things down or run away To handle this. I say to myself this is a different situation, a different person, and you are a different person. You are wiser and more aware and you can make different choices than you did before. I tell myself that love wasn't the problem. It never is. Rather, the people I chose and the decisions I made in the past weren't right for me or them. I didn't honor my needs or pay attention to our incompatibilities because I wanted to be with them. I remind myself of the ways I've grown as a person and I tell myself to trust again, trust others and trust myself.
Carrie Jeroslow:And this is the next part I underlined I don't want to show up to new people and new love from a place of hurt, keeping myself reserved and fearful lest I be hurt again. I want to be loved fully and in order to receive full love, I must give it. I feel the fear and do it anyway. I choose courage. Loving someone is a courageous act. Be brave I'm like seriously chills all over. Be brave I'm like seriously chills all over. And then you have the prompt do you approach love courageously? What ways do you approach love? From a place of fear? And I think that this passage is so important because I feel a lot of the dysfunction in the world is from us behaving and acting, from our woundedness and not from a place of choosing healing. And I feel like we could heal the world when we look at ourselves and be intentional with our own healing and say that this relationship is different and be brave and courageous. So that one was like wow, mind blown, and I'd love to hear more about what was your inspiration for that passage.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:A lot of that book was written after my divorce, after my marriage ended. So you want to talk about Tinder? You want to talk about Raw? Okay, my ex-husband and I were together for 16 years. It's a long time, yeah, and that was like a rejection to my core. I felt rejected to my core when that happened because he pursued the relationship ending. I did not. I didn't want. It Wasn't a mutual thing where we're like, yeah, this isn't working. Working it was very much him being like, okay, I'm done, and that was it.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Love felt and still feels very scary. Um, because I'm like man, if someone who I spent that much time and that much investment and whatever can walk away. Love is, it's a scary place and love is courageous. It's a courageous act because we're loving humans and, even with the best intentions, you're going to get hurt, that they're going to miss the mark, that there are going to be times when you feel stupid, that there are going to be times when you hurt them. And so to show up to love in any capacity, not even just romantic relationships think about your parental relationships, your relationships with your kids, your relationship with friends To show up to loving someone is a very courageous act. It takes a lot of bravery. It really does.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And I noticed that I had a lot of fear in my love space and a lot of tenderness and I didn't want to show up to new connections with that fear. I didn't want to let fear govern my relationship experience. It's a useful tool. It has information to tell you. I tell people, people are like you got to get rid of fear. And I'm like, okay, well, fear is what keeps you from putting your hand on the stove so you get burned. Okay, so fear is a useful human device. It has a place, definitely, but we should be receiving its information. It should not be governing us.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And I didn't want fear to govern my connection experiences, because I noticed that when I allow fear to govern my relationship experiences, I keep myself small, I keep myself distant and I don't experience genuine, full enriching, satisfying connection because I'm not really reaching for it, because that kind of connection takes an immense and incredible amount of bravery.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And so, as I was navigating dating and relationships and all those things post-divorce, I'm like I'm 42. I call this the downhill slope of life and I'm like I don't want to spend that last half of my life having these truncated, little bite-sized relationship tapas, with not having full meals because I'm afraid to eat robustly in my relationships. I didn't want to do that, so I was like, yeah, we got to figure out how to get a handle on fear so that we are utilizing it in a way that is adding to our relationship experience, and that I'm making wiser choices, I'm using my discernment, I'm paying attention when something doesn't work for me, making those decisions in a timely fashion, but I'm making wise choices about who I choose to engage with all of those things, but that I'm not doing it so that it's keeping me small, it's keeping me limited, it's keeping me from showing up and loving the people in my life in a courageous way, and so that was where that one came from.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah. So the way that it's really helped me is realizing that when I'm hurt, I disconnect. It is how I survived. From 12 years old on was like I cannot deal with the stuff that's happening in my house. I'm just going to disconnect so that I can keep living or just keep existing. And I do that in my relationships and it really helped me become aware of that so that when it happens, I still may choose disconnection. It still may happen, but I am a lot more conscious about it.
Carrie Jeroslow:And I have had moments where I have chosen, courageously, connection instead of disconnection when I'm feeling hurt, and so that was how that one played out for me. It's been really helpful to have that awareness and be able to make the choice, because when you have the awareness, you can then say oh there, that is again how do I choose to respond. And, just like I did, you can still respond in the wounded way. That's understandable. It's not like you need to. Oh, now, I know about it, I got to be perfect, it's just okay. Now I have an awareness and I know in that moment I chose to disconnect.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Right, I say that to me. I actually did this as it relates to compersion. But what I began to do in non-monogamy is not necessarily try to figure out how to be different. What I created for myself was options, just like you said. Options. I may still choose to do the wounded thing, I may still choose to do the avoided thing, I may still choose to do the anxious thing. That may be a choice that I make, but it created options so that in moments where I was waffling, in that space of indecision, I'm like, can we choose to move towards an option that I ultimately want to be or that is in alignment with my integrity? And if the choice is no, I can't, okay, cool, I let myself go. But if I can reach out for a different option, can I choose a different option and see what kind of results I get? And so I started really just created options for myself.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, yeah. Which interesting, leads me into the next one that I want to read. This kind of reminds me of the acceptance of where I'm at and being okay with it and showing myself compassion. So this is day 33 and this is the heading. It says sometimes, even with the proper tools, all the reassurance and support from our partners and a grasp on all the necessary logic, we still can't seem to get rid of our uncomfortable feelings. That's okay. Sometimes you just have to feel them and then you write.
Carrie Jeroslow:There have been occasions where I've offered advice on how to deal with a difficult emotion in non-monogamy and the person has responded by saying so what happens if I do that and I still feel bad? My response is always you simply feel it. I know that's hard to hear. The uncomfortable feelings can be so visceral and persistent that we scramble for anything we can do to make them go away. While there will be times when we are able to find ways to alleviate our discomforts more easily, there will also be times when, no matter what we do, we just can't shake the feelings.
Carrie Jeroslow:It is in those moments where we learn to sit with ourselves and our emotions and simply feel them. We learn that we don't always have to do something about them. We learn that we can get through feeling uncomfortable and still show up with integrity. We learn that this too shall pass. And then your prompt is is sitting with your difficult emotions, challenging for you. What ways can you encourage yourself to simply feel what you're feeling? Which is that thing of I've made the choice to disconnect because it's so uncomfortable and I can't connect. I want to. I wish I was perfect, I wish I could, but I can't and I'm just going to sit in the disconnect and the uncomfortable feelings. And that really was great. Carl Jung said what you resist persists, and to me the next part of that is what we allow moves. So what we allow to be there and feel will create space to move, and so that came up when I was reading that prompt.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Yeah, I always say that feelings move on a lot sooner when you give them their airtime. There's a really really, really great poem that I love by, I believe it's Rumi, and it's called the Guest House and it talks about our feelings coming as these guests to our house and they come and they visit us and they have messages to tell us and they move on a lot sooner when they feel heard, when they feel seen, when they feel validated, when you give them their airtime. And so often we try to intellectualize our feelings. Usually, now, it's rare for me to feel a feeling that if someone says what's going on, I'm not having immediate access to what's going on. I'm usually like I'm good, I'm feeling this because of this, I'm feeling this because of this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and that I can give you all the data, all the stats, easily, at the drop of a hat. And sometimes I'm like, okay, we try to logic, puzzle our feelings. Well, if I can figure out all the numbers of the equation and solve it, then the equation is done and now I can put that homework away. And I'm like, yeah, no, but emotions are not logic, they're not data like emotion, or it's a different set of data. It's a different kind of data and sometimes, even with knowing everything that's impacting an emotion, your partner's showing up, well, the situation being resolved or whatever you're still like man. I'm still feeling funky. Yeah, because it's a feeling. They're meant to be felt, they're meant to be experienced, and the more we just allow our feelings the space to just exist and just be, I feel like the greater opportunity we have for them to move on sooner.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And often, when feelings are persisting and persisting and persisting, like you said, it's because we're in resistance, where we're trying to figure out how to run away from it. It's like the image that's coming forward for me is someone trying to serve you papers. It's like to go to court and you move and you run away and whatever, but they keep following you because it's like dude, you got to get this message, I got to give you these papers, I'm going to give you these papers. Our feelings are the same way, and so when we make our peace with the fact that we are emotional beings, that we have feelings, that feelings are part of our human experience and they're a beautiful part of our human experience.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Even in the sad times, even in the challenging times. They're part of what makes us who we are as human beings. The more we embrace that and the more that we release shame, the more we get rid of this idea that there's a good or a bad way to feel and just accept it as like I am a human being having a human experience and that human experience impacts me emotionally. I feel like the easier we're able to be at peace with our emotions. If you find you have a particular emotion that you're struggling to be at peace with, maybe just sit with it and go. I'm just going to wrap my arms around myself and just hold myself and hold that part of me that just needs to express and that just needs to feel and that just needs to move through the impact that the situation has had on me.
Carrie Jeroslow:That's so healing, because I think most people have had the experience of someone saying to them I don't want to hear what you have to say. And I had that happen by someone very influential in my life saying I don't want to hear. That my 12-year-old translated into what you have to say is not important. And so for ourselves, when we can say I want to hear whatever this is, I want to hear the emotion. I want to feel the emotion and I talk to people about saying hello to it, because people are like well, how do I feel it?
Carrie Jeroslow:It feels so uncomfortable in my body and if I say a gentle hello to it, put my hand on my chest or my belly or wherever I feel it, and say hello, I see you and it's okay. It's okay to be who you are. That that's healing some deep wounds that I think the majority of people in this world have had again on different levels of I don't want to hear what you have to say I love that you brought that up too, because you think about that person, how impactful that was for you.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Here you are still talking about it and, like you said, it happened when you were 12 and you're still talking about that experience. You could still bring it to mind Now. Imagine how influential of a person we are to ourselves and we do that to ourselves all the time. I don't want to hear what you have to say, have to say, and so it's funny that we can project out onto someone outside of us and see how damaging it is when someone does it, especially someone. We really need them to hear what we want to say. I need you to validate this impact that is happening for me right now. I need you to validate this impact that you had on me right now. I need to be witnessed in this moment and I'm coming to you in my vulnerability to be witnessed in this moment, and you shut me down. You did not validate me, you created no space for me. How painful that is when it happens outside of. But we do that to ourselves all the time. Yeah, all the time we do that to ourselves.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, so starting with ourselves to give that space that you talk about, oh, I mean that in and of itself, I think, can create so much healing within ourselves, and it's something that is simple, not easy. Simple, not easy takes practice. I've been doing that hello meditation for seriously almost 20 years and I still need to come back to it and I still resist my feelings. But when I really sit, put my hand over wherever I feel it and breathe into it and say hello, it's like I do. I feel like almost like the rush of blood and energy in my body. It starts to move. So, anyway, that was day 33. Amazing. Okay, we're going to move on. This one is really big with me. Maybe it's because I have been involved with drama and theater for the majority of my life, but this one really spoke to me. And this is day 21.
Carrie Jeroslow:Sometimes we can get so worked up about something that we catastrophize a situation way beyond what is occurring. Relax, try to remain present and reserve your emotional energy by not magnifying the situation, and then you write. This used to happen to me. Often A partner would share with me about an upcoming date or a new romantic interest and my mind would take off like a bullet. What if they hit it off and then they fall in love and then I have a new metamor and I have to face all the ways that makes me uncomfortable and they get another partner while I'm struggling to find others and they become more connected to the new person than they are to me and dot dot, dot. I would react to all of the feelings those thoughts would generate, turning something that was simple and innocuous into a major issue and expending a ton of emotional energy on fears that almost never came to pass.
Carrie Jeroslow:After experiencing this several times, I learned to temper my thoughts and manage my emotional responses to what was actually happening in the present.
Carrie Jeroslow:While it was true that all of the things I was fearing could happen, it was equally as true that none of the things I was fearing could happen. It's better to just focus on what is currently going on and meet the situation at hand with a proportionate response. And then your prompt is do you jump to the worst case scenario when your partners are interacting with other people? If so, why? What prevents you from considering the best case scenario? And I just want to say hello, that's like my life, right, I always go to the worst case scenario and I've really gone into why I do that. Because it's almost natural and for me it's a protection, because I have had some things go on, some people very close to me dying when I was very young, and it was like at that moment, if I just think of the worst case scenario, it will probably be better than that and I'll protect myself or I'll be prepared if something really bad happens. So I'd love to hear more about your inspiration for that passage.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Because that was me doom and destruction, doomsday. And I find that people that have lived lives where they've experienced loss, trauma, harm, abuse, we try to avoid pain. And so you're looking at a situation and I think that, especially if that is your springboard into life which for a lot of people, that is their springboard into life you look at the situation and you want to assess all the possibilities for pain so you can head them off at the pass, so you can be ready Because it's like, okay, I don't want to experience pain ever again or pain like that ever again. And so that's what we do. I find that people that had more positive springboards in life they tend to not do that. Then they'll be like maybe a mixture, and then for really positive people, they actually spend time thinking about all the ways that things can go right.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:But I wasn't one of those people Okay, thinking about all the ways that things can go right, but I wasn't one of those people Okay. So I was the one spending time about thinking about all the ways that things could go wrong, and so I would have these experiences sometimes where my partner would come home and they would say I met somebody new, or I'm going on a date or whatever, and I'm like, oh my God, would they like this person more? I would go to the worst case scenario and two weeks later they wouldn't even be talking anymore. I don't know How's it going on with someone? So they ghosted me.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:I don't know, you know what I mean and I'm like and I went through all of this emotional turmoil for this person.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Oh my God, he's going to be so in love with her and he's just going to, she's going to eclipse me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And two weeks later they weren't even speaking and I'd be like I went through all it is yeah For nothing. Essentially Because I was trying to protect myself from this, I say this is something that I come up with. I have these like sayings that I come up with throughout the course of my life that I remind myself of, and the saying is don't waste present moment energy for a phantom future scenario.
Carrie Jeroslow:I love that.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:Say that one more time, don't waste present moment energy on a phantom future scenario, Because even if you predict something to 98% accuracy because you have to allow a margin for human error even if you can predict something to 98.999% accuracy, you may have imagined the wrong shirt that the person had on. Whatever, you have to allow a margin for error. Even if you can predict something to almost complete accuracy, that 2% means that that scenario that you came up with is a phantom future scenario, Because there's just no possible way that you can nail it on the head and so often we're using all of this energy in the present moment for circumstances that are not even going to come to pass, and that is literally like taking money and putting it on fire.
Carrie Jeroslow:Definitely.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:That's what it is. It's taking your present resources and whisking them away because you can't get that energy back in the future. You really can't. It's gone once it's expended. So I had to learn how to, and I would have all these circumstances and these situations where I would expend so much energy, being so upset, and then it came to nothing and I had to learn how to stay present with what was going on. And then also, I heard this thing once in a podcast and I can never remember what podcast it was. I found it like one time and then lost it again.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:But this guy said something that I really loved. He said he likes to practice accurate thinking with a positive bias. So what that means is no one's saying that you don't look at this circumstance and you don't consider the worst case scenarios, because, just like the good stuff can happen or the bad stuff can happen to absolutely, it can totally happen. Like. One of my thoughts were what happens if me and my husband divorce? We are divorced today. That happens, it happens, and I don't blame polyamory for that, but I digress. It's not saying to turn a blind eye to the accuracy of what's happening and all of the outcomes that could be a result of any particular situation, but trying to have the needle veer more towards the positive side positive bias because when you have a positive bias, even when you think of those catastrophic situations, you can still find positivity about that thing. I had to learn how to accurately, because I'm moving towards. I've been doing a lot of work personally on my positive thinking and all those things and it's a continuous work Definitely.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:I've never been this person that is always look on the bright side of your life, like I've never been that kind of person. And so I liked the idea of saying, okay, I'm going to look at the actuality of a situation and I'm going to assess it accurately, but I want to try to see if my bias towards my perspective and how I view it is a little bit more on the positive side, because I find that that's beneficial for how I respond, that's beneficial for how I show up to myself in those moments, if everything that happens is doom and destruction think of COVID People running into stores fighting people over toilet paper. When we are in that fight or flight mode, we don't make the best choices, we don't make the wisest decisions.
Carrie Jeroslow:We're panicking.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And so, if everything that happens, you're going to the worst case scenario every time. The worst case scenario every time. That means you're living your life in a state of panic. You're panicking, panicking, panicking all the time, and we don't always make the best decision when we were panicking. And so one of the tools that I give to my clients when I'm coaching them especially clients that find themselves in that downward spiral I'm like okay, set a timer and allow yourself the space. Say, for 10 minutes, I'm going to consider the worst things that can happen and then I'm going to stop myself for 10 minutes. Try to be disciplined to stop yourself for 10 minutes. When the timer goes off 10 minutes, I'm going to stop and then take another 10 minutes and think of all the ways that things can go positive.
Carrie Jeroslow:I love that. Yeah, I love that and it reminds me. I deal with anxiety and I think about how much of an energy leak it is and how much energy I expend daily. Thinking about like anxiety is about worrying about the future. You're not in the present moment at all in anxiety and I think a lot about when I'm at the end of my life, what will be the most important thing, and that's how I prioritize things that I do now and I also think about when I'm at the end of my life and all the things I worried about, all the things and all that time and the energy that I wasted by worrying, and it's a lot. It's a lot. So I like that. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do the 10 minutes worst case scenario, 10 minutes best case scenario. And I like ending on best case scenario because that stress of the worst case scenario is bad for mind, body, spirit, really bad. It actually creates the adrenaline release and stress in the body and ages the body and ages the mind and the soul.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:So such a great suggestion that I am going to take with me, and the thing that I love about that, too, is I don't know if you've seen Inside Out 2, but the same thing the introduction of anxiety.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:So, like I said, feelings love their airtime. So your anxiety, your anxiousness, that's a function of who you are as a human, and so everybody's idea is I gotta figure out how to not do this ever, instead of just going, okay, I'm gonna give myself my space to be the anxious baddie that I am. Okay, but I'm gonna clip it totally. I'm gonna give it a limit so that it feels like it had a space to express itself. And then I said, okay, we're going to wrap it up, that's enough of that, yeah. And then I'm going to counter it with something, so that I'm not just sitting in, because it's one thing to say, okay, stop having anxiety or stop thinking anxious thoughts, or whatever. You need something to replace it with.
Carrie Jeroslow:So that creates a void, right, right. So if you're out there experiencing this kind of emotion, try this and connect with Evita and let Evita know how it's helped you, because I can already feel it in my body. I can already feel the shift of that practice. So I'm really excited to try that. So thank you for that. I'm not going to read any more of the book because you've just got to go and order it. You will feel so supported and seen by this book, so go do that right after you finish listening, before we leave, I want to ask you now you have been in this non-monogamy world for over a decade what is your grandest vision for the future of diverse relationships?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:That children and not like kids. But when I think about it, I actually think about my kids, because I have two 18-year-old boys and almost 15-year-old daughter. So they're at that age. Like my son has a girlfriend he's had for a little while now. They're at that age, friend he's had for a little while now. They're at that age. And so when I think about the, the grandest future is one of my teenagers.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And, granted, they have this experience, but not every teenager does, or not every human does. If they can come home one day and bring whatever partner they have and the person just says, okay, it's nice to meet you, that's it. We don't have to come out as gay, we don't have to come out as polyamorous. People see people in relationships. They see people making consensual choices with other consenting people and people just go oh, that's what you're into, love, that for you, fantastic. I hope it goes well and that it doesn't have to be this large thing that now it's as big. Like I said, we have to have this coming out moment where people can just choose the relationship experiences that have value to them, that are nourishing to them, that are fulfilling for them, and that they can feel supported in those choices, that people know that they have options, that they don't have to do one particular thing or another. Okay, you want to get married and you don't want to live together? Cool, that's great, wonderful, we love it. Great self-awareness oh, you want to have children with a platonic partner? Wow, that's great. I love that for you. I have a happy pregnancy and great self-awareness. You want to have a romantic relationship where y'all don't have sex because you're asexual and you don't want to? Great, that's fantastic. Love that for you. Great self-awareness.
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:And that's the response that people receive when they're making genuine connection choices, and that people have the freedom to make genuine connection choices and to find their people. But to find someone that says that thing that you want, hey, I want that too. Let's do that together as opposed to like it having to be this thing where some things are just people just look at and they don't bat an eye at. And then there are these other things that occur, and I'm not talking about things that are harmful, things that are abusive. That's not the stuff that I'm talking about. I'm talking about just regular stuff that really doesn't impact anybody but the people in the relationship themselves. You know that people are just look over and go oh wow, that's what works for you. Man, that's super rad, I'm glad, great, fantastic. And that's the response that people get, and not these like pearl clutching oh my God reactions that people get, or these caustic or even antagonistic or hostile reactions that people get for simply making authentic choices in their relationship and connection space.
Carrie Jeroslow:That is beautiful. I would like to join you in holding that vision as well. You said that and express that brilliantly, and that is my intention for this podcast and for supporting people like you in doing this incredible work. If people wanted to connect with you, what is the best way to do that?
Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers:So most of my content is seen on my Instagram page at lavitaloca34. That's L-A-V-I-T-A-L-O-C-A 34, all one word. That's largely where most of my content is. I also have my book, polyamorous Devotional, available at most major book outlets, and then usually on my Instagram, I'm posting different workshops and things that I'm speaking on, then I'm involved with, and so, yeah, really just my Instagram, my book. You can reach out to me directly there. I also have a Facebook page, lovita Locasurs, and so I can be contacted there and reach there as well, but most of my content is pretty much concentrated on. Also, I do TikTok and I do Twitter, but not a ton. But hey, if you want to stay really abreast with me, instagram is the place.
Carrie Jeroslow:I'm so appreciative of you and your voice and your perspectives and for bringing reality to life and to relationships. So thank you so much for being here and everyone, please go connect with Evita right now and go buy her book, because you will be awed by it. So thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast. Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my website, kerryjerislowcom. Are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my website, kerryjerislowcom, instagram or TikTok. Stay curious.
Carrie Jeroslow:Every relationship is as unique as you are. Are you wondering why you never seem to find lasting fulfillment in your relationships? Or do you create the same kinds of relationship experiences over and over again? Can you never seem to find even one person who you want to explore a relationship with. Have you just given up hope altogether? If this sounds like you, my recent book why Do they Always Break Up With Me is the perfect place to start. The foundation of any relationship, whether intimate or not, is the relationship we have with ourselves. In the book, I lead you through eight clear steps to start or continue your self-exploration journey. You'll learn about the importance of self-acceptance, gratitude, belief, shifting and forgiveness, and given exercises to experience these life-changing concepts. This is the process I use to shift my relationships from continual heartbreak to what they are now fulfilling, soul-nourishing, compassionate and loving. It is possible for you. This book can set you on a path to get there. Currently available through Amazon or through the link in the show notes.
