Relationship Diversity Podcast
Every relationship is as unique as you are. Relationship Diversity Podcast aims to celebrate, question, and explore all aspects of relationships and relationship structure diversity. Together, we’ll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships. We’ll ask challenging and transformational questions, like: Who am I? What do I really want in my relationships? Am I in this relationship structure because it’s all I know or is it really the fullest expression of who I am? Being curious, having courage to look within, and asking these important questions creates the space for joy-filled, soul-nourishing relationships. Your host and guide, Carrie Jeroslow is an International Best-Selling Author, Conscious Relationship Coach, and Intuitive. Through this podcast, she helps to normalize discussions about all different kinds of relationship structures from soloamory to monogamy to polyamory, and everything in between. This is a space of inclusivity and acceptance. The time is NOW to shift the conversation to a new paradigm of conscious, intentional, and diverse relationships.Join in as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become.
Relationship Diversity Podcast
Ep. 110: Is There a RIGHT Way To Do Non-Monogamy? With Emma and Fin from Normalizing Non-Monogamy
Episode 110:
Is There a RIGHT Way to do Non-Monogamy? with Emma and Finn from Normalizing Non-Monogamy
In this episode, I have an enlightening conversation with my friends, Emma and Fin, the hosts of the Normalizing Non-Monogamy podcast.
They discuss the endless possibilities of relationship structures, their personal journey into non-monogamy, and the lessons they've learned from interviewing hundreds of people over the years.
The episode emphasizes the importance of living an authentic life, the power of community support, and the fact that there is no 'right' way to do relationships. The conversation addresses the challenges and rewards of non-monogamy and provides insights into building and maintaining various types of relationships. Additionally, they explore the origins and growth of their community and the value of in-person and online connections.
01:49 Meet Emma and Finn from Normalizing Non-Monogamy
02:39 Emma and Finn's Relationship Journey
06:30 Exploring Non-Monogamy: Early Experiences
13:37 Challenges and Growth in Non-Monogamy
19:54 The Inspiration Behind the Podcast
23:19 Takeaways from Hundreds of Conversations
28:54 Navigating Autonomy in Long-Term Relationships
29:52 Exploring Solo Polyamory
30:19 Challenging Relationship Norms
33:06 The Importance of Community
34:56 Building and Growing a Supportive Community
38:18 In-Person Retreats and Events
43:04 Workshop: Is There a Right Way to Do Non-Monogamy?
50:20 Embracing the Messiness of Relationships
52:29 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Connect with Emma and Finn:
This is Relationships Reimagined.
Join the conversation as we dive into a new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.
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Podcast Music by Zachariah Hickman
Please note: I am not a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, or social worker. I am not attempting to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any physical, mental, or emotional issue, disease, or condition. The information provided in or through my podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment provided by your own Medical Provider or Mental Health Provider. Always seek the advice of your own Medical Provider and/or Mental Health Provider regarding any questions or concerns you have about your specific circumstance.
You can rewrite and discover a different relationship structure at any point in your life. We have talked to people who discovered this and tried opening their relationship in their 20s. We also have people that have not done this until their 70s and 80s and still have been able to embrace it and feel like they're living their true selves even at that age of life. There's nothing that's too late.
Finn:There's people who've opened a partnership from right at the beginning, similar to what we did, and there's then often these people who discover it. Maybe they're empty nesters now and they finally have some time when it starts to come up 20 or 30 years into a marriage. And now you're opening up something that's been this sealed up, tight container of stability. You're injecting a little bit of chaos into it and you're breaking it up. We've seen it all.
Carrie Jeroslow:Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Keri Jaroslow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow:Today I'm honored to have with me my amazing friends Emma and Finn of the Normalizing Non-Monogamy Podcast. They are both such caring, loving people who, through their podcast and community, advocate for all the ways non-monogamy and relationships in general can be expressed and experienced. Using the wisdom they've gained from over 350 episodes, they share their biggest takeaways from hearing stories of how people structure and evolve their own relationships in their own unique ways. As they answer the question is there a right way to do non-monogamy? This is relationship diversity at its best. But first a little about them. In their own words, we're Emma and Finn. For us, life is all about seeking out adventure, embracing the chaos and meeting amazing people along the way. We've been together for over 18 years, non-monogamous for over 17 years, and have explored a wide range of different relationship dynamics. Together, we host the Normalizing Non-Monogamy podcast and run a global online and in-person community by the same name. Our mission is to inspire people to embrace their true selves so that together we can open minds and live authentically without shame.
Carrie Jeroslow:Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I'm so excited to have my guests with me today and I feel super honored to have them as well, because today I have Finn and Emma from the Normalizing Non-Monogamy Podcast, and the reason why this is so special to me is because, as I was venturing into the world of the unknown of relationship diversity, their podcast was the very first podcast that popped up when I started searching for more information, and I listened to so many episodes and really was quite inspired by this idea that a lot of people are doing relationships differently, when I wasn't seeing it in my environment, and it really helped me to feel not so alone as I started exploring what relationships could become, and so it is such an honor to have Emma and Finn here today. You guys, welcome to the podcast.
Emma:Thank you so much for having us. We're really, really excited to be here. It's been a long time coming.
Finn:Yeah, thank you, keri.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yes, yes, it has been, and in the time that we first connected, I've been on your podcast and have been to one of your community events in Atlanta, which was amazing, and we'll get all into how incredible the community that you both have built is. But first, for anyone out there who doesn't know who Emma and Finn are, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Finn:Sure, we'd love to.
Emma:Yes, and again, thank you for having us. Thank you for your patience. We're excited to dive into this conversation today. We are I'm on, finn, as you mentioned hosts and creators of the Normalizing Non-Monogamy Podcast. We are almost at episode 350 and just hit six years in May, which is crazy. I can't quite believe it. Yeah, that's crazy, but also really exciting, and we interview people exploring non-monogamy about their relationship structures. Every week, every Wednesday, we release a new episode and we also have an online community. As you mentioned, our relationship. We've been together for I should have done the math almost 20 years. Next year will be 20 years. We've been together.
Emma:We have had an open relationship in some form for almost that whole time, and it's been quite a journey as well, exploring different types of relationships within our relationship. And what else should I add?
Finn:I thought that was pretty darn good.
Emma:I don't know that I have a whole lot of notes. So 20 years you all have been together and almost that entire-. I think we'll technically 19 because it'll be next year but I just want to-.
Carrie Jeroslow:Well, I think you're close enough to 20-. We can round up To be able to say, right to round up, and for so much of that, almost the entire time you've been non-monogamous or some form of something other than monogamous, and I'd love to hear how you first ventured into that. Straying away from maybe a typical quote, unquote traditional relationship structure.
Finn:Yeah, it's actually a really great question and, as you're talking, I was thinking.
Finn:One of the things about our partnership that's also unique is, in terms of relationship diversity, is the fact that we've actually known each other since seventh grade, so we were roughly 13 when we met.
Finn:So, in terms of the full arc of our relationship, we were friends for quite a few years. We became really close friends in high school and then we ended up going to college and the same university and started dating our freshman year of college. So our whole relationship arc goes way back and over that time, knowing each other for coming up on 25 years at this point. We've had a lot of different relationships, we've been a lot of different people and I think that's one of the things that we're learning now at this stage of our lives that we've been in some ways trying to force each other into those boxes that like, oh, we're still that 13 year old, 15 year old, 17 year old person that we used to know, and having to actually finally update the firmware of who the hell we are to each other, cause we get stuck in that like, oh, you're still that person I grew up with, versus like no, you have lived a whole freaking life since then, and so we've been learning how to do that.
Emma:Yeah, yeah, we have, and it's been an evolution for sure. As far as your question around how it came to be, about a year into our relationship, finn came to me and shared that and I'd love to hear your input on this. But from my recollection he shared that he didn't want to hold each other back, but he wanted to grow a relationship together. And so how could we find that dance? And I was nervous because I was like I don't know how to do that, but I'm also excited about that and let's see how we can do that. But we didn't know what we were doing. We had no idea, we had no models, we had no idea. But it's been part of our conversation and our relationship in some form since then. So it's looked a lot of different ways, but it really was born out of the idea of not wanting to limit each other in life but also wanting to build a life together.
Finn:Yeah, and from my side of that is there was a few things going on. One is we grew up in a very, very small farming town in the Midwest and the world was a pretty small place, and going to college we got to a little bit bigger city town it wasn't a city and then our sophomore year of college we ended up studying abroad in Australia and it's a fun thing to note for me that we actually made the decision of which school to study at when we got there separately and we did not want to be just like I'm following you, you're following me. It turns out it was really good fortune that we picked the same school because we were a bit different than all of the other study abroad students. So we did a ton of traveling around Australia and that really opened up our worldview and in that I was like look, I don't want to hold you back in life. I also don't want to be held back.
Finn:But I think there's also something goes on for me that there's a big thing around trust and trusting that you authentically want to be here with me doing what we're doing, and I feel in many ways that the only way you can really know that is if you're able to experience everything.
Finn:So if you're like, oh, I love you so much, you're the most amazing partner, I'm like, but you've had one partner, how can you know that? And so my brain does a lot of magic tricks to try to force me into disbelieving what people tell me. And so this was for me. This is a way to say look, you can do anything you want, you can go out with whoever you want. It didn't start that way, but that's where it is for me is, I want you to just be yourself, and if that means we are together, then I can wholly believe that. Versus we have a marriage certificate, so we should go to this thing together. Versus I actually want to be there with you. Not, I'm bound legally to go to this party with you or to this family reunion with you.
Carrie Jeroslow:So it sounds very intentional and wise for a young adult to have those beliefs. I think it took me a really long time to feel trusting and excited for my partner to be who they are and really work their way out of this box that society, culture puts us in. I love the context that your experience is meeting at 13. And most people believe that from a 13 year old to a 30 year old, that you are doing this evolution, you're growing, you're evolving. That's just what teenage and young adult years are all about, and I think that that can really apply to people starting a path, maybe of non-monogamy or relationship diversity or even exploration in their 20s and 30s. It's the same thing we are always evolving and growing and that then informs how we show up in our lives and in our relationships. But it seems so clear, with you meeting at 13 years old and this whole journey that you've gone through, I'm curious.
Carrie Jeroslow:So 20 years ago, almost 20 years ago, that was what 2004, 2005 that you were venturing in. That's around the time that I had my first open relationship and I didn't even know to call it that because there wasn't the information. It was more well. This is the situation we're in and this is how I want to experience it, and so I want to give you opportunity to go, do what you need to do, or do what you want to do. Let's just be honest that was the context, but there was not. This is an open relationship. So where did you learn in 2005, 2006 about this potential, about this different way of being in relationship? Where did you go to educate yourself? Or did you learn by trial, trial and error?
Emma:It was really slow, we didn't know.
Finn:And in bringing it up, because I was the guilty party who brought this up and I can't even really say where I learned about this. I remember the first time I actually brought this up was in high school with my high school girlfriend. This was a similar thing Like what if we were not so closed off about this, and that went spectacularly poorly. I was in high school, we were in high school. Yeah, all sorts of things were not great about that, and I don't know where the vernacular or any of it even really came from. It was just an ideology that I'm like. This just seems to make more sense.
Emma:And I think we slowly learned over time some of the language. It wasn't really until 2010, that we started to find a couple of podcasts and starting to learn more. It was a very slow thing for lots of reasons. We were really young as well and also just living life in a really small town too, so it took a long time for us to learn those things. And I also want to point out that, in everything that we've said so far, I don't want to paint a picture that this has been easy. I don't want to paint a picture that this has been easy. I don't want to paint a picture that we have everything figured out, because that's so not the case. We are constantly figuring things out, growing, changing, having attachment, fears come up, dealing with jealousy. It's been part of the whole thing for us, and I just want to make sure that people know that too, because as much as we strive to be and feel certain ways, it doesn't mean we're not human, and all of that still comes in, and it has been, at times, really difficult.
Carrie Jeroslow:I appreciate that because I have had a very similar experience and I think most people, when they start to break out of all of the programming that we've been taught, there's so much that comes up, and then our own experiences on top of that and our own expectations of what we think our life should look like. That adds to all of that, and so I'll ask you this, because a lot of people ask me if it's so challenging, why do you do it?
Finn:Yeah, yeah, I think my personal answer today would be different than if you'd asked me that probably five or six years ago, because I think I've learned a lot more about myself. But I think right now, the answer to that is because this is who I am. I've fought this for so long. Looking back, yeah, I brought this up in high school to a partner. There was nobody talking about this in our town or where we were from, and so there's always been something about this to me, that the idea that I want you to be in connection with the people that makes the most sense for you, and I would love the same for me.
Finn:I've always wanted for Emma, or for people that I'm with, to be able to have the friends they want, be in partnerships with who they want.
Finn:Again, I don't want people to feel like they have to be with me, and so this translated to all of my relationships, friendships, family stuff like that and so I think for me at this point, it's part of who I am, it's part of how I like to connect with people on this really authentic way of being able to say here's where I am in life, here's what I have capacity for, here's maybe what I think about the way that you and I are getting to know each other what do you have capacity for, what are you available for and what are you interested in and then saying, okay, we can take all of that information and this is the product that comes out, put it in an oven and bring it out and it's like oop, it looks like this, we do it this way, and it maybe doesn't have a label, but we at least have an understanding of how we can be in each other's lives, in a way that you feel great and I feel great and hopefully Emma feels great and everybody involved feels really great about the way that we're relating to one another.
Emma:And on my end, my answer probably is likely different than several years ago as well. It's ebb and flowed, but I think a close friend once told me several years ago that exploring non-monogamy is signing up to live an examined life, and I really loved the way that she shared that with me because I feel like that is the truth. It is truth you can live an examined life other ways, but exploring non-monogamy forces you to work on shit. You have to, and so I think, for me, I'm somebody who, even if it's scary, even if it's hard, I want to do those things. I want to live an examined life. I want to explore as much and experience as much life as I can, and I want that adventure, and so it may look different ways throughout my life, and that's okay, but ultimately I want to push myself and do those things, and that's why I'm here.
Carrie Jeroslow:This is why I feel so resonant with you all, because I feel the same way that life is about living and experiencing all the emotions, and I have grown exponentially because of my journey into whatever the relationships look like in the moment, and they ebb and flow, which is why I love this idea of relationship diversity, because it can be exactly thin. Like you were saying, if you are living your authentic life and you're living as authentically as you can in this moment, and then the people who you are in relationship, regardless of what that relationship looks like, they are doing the same thing, then you are designing this relationship with the whole spectrum of what is possible. And so that leads to your podcast, because you're in the 300s. What episode are you on now?
Emma:346, I think 346.
Carrie Jeroslow:You inspire me, you have always inspired me. Episode 346. So that's almost 350 people that you have talked to who are doing non-monogamy in their own way. Yeah, yeah.
Finn:And this is an issuing a correction to you, carrie but what's funny about that is, even within that, I would say, we've actually talked to probably close to 500, 600, because even within a partnership we've started to notice that people do non-monogamy differently, even within a partnership. And so there's a bunch that we've interviewed quads or triads or couples, and even within there they are not doing the same thing. So just in terms of the sheer number of different ways, I mean, yeah, it's everybody's doing it different, even within a partnership, which I think is amazing.
Carrie Jeroslow:Everybody's doing it different, even within a partnership, which I think is amazing, yeah, which then leads me to always ask who out there is saying there's a right way to do it. There just isn't.
Emma:It's just bullshit. That's really our message of there is no right way to do relationship. We're not here to tell you non-monogamy is for you. We're not here to tell you monogamy is for you. We're not telling like any of the spectrum of non-monogamy at any of it One's better. No, nothing is better than the other, but you have options, you have choices, you can build relationships that you want in your life, and we want to highlight many, many different ways to do that.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, and so I want to hear more about what you've learned and your takeaways from the hundreds and hundreds of dynamics that you've heard. But I first would love to hear what was the inspiration for the podcast. How did that happen?
Finn:The funny thing is, the origin of it is a little more self-serving, which was when we first started. I brought this to Emma. I guess this would have been 2018.
Emma:Yeah, the have been 2018. Yeah, the beginning of 2018.
Finn:Yeah, we were in the swinging world mostly at this point, and we would often find podcasts to listen to and most of them that were coming up in that time were swinging podcasts. Not strictly, but that's what we were finding and it would often be usually a couple who had been married quite a while. They decided to open their partnership and the first couple episodes are them telling about themselves. And then we went to a sex club, and then we went to this place and we went to a resort and we had done enough of those things that I would often lose interest and I'd be like, ok, well, not that it's not interesting, but I've been to those places. I know what they look like inside. You like inside, you're not blowing my mind. Who's the next people? I want to meet the next people and I'm like, why isn't there a show out there that every week it's somebody new?
Emma:Because I just want to keep meeting new people.
Finn:I don't know if you can sense a theme here that maybe runs through my life.
Carrie Jeroslow:I'm learning so much about you, Finn.
Finn:I tend to be a bit of an experience junkie where I want to experience everything. I want to live as much of life as I can, and so to me was like I want to meet these people, what's going on for them? And then, as we got into it, I think the inspiration has really changed. I can at least say for myself. It became really powerful to hear like, okay, they do it a little different than they do it. Okay, there's not a right way, because my brain is another one that searches for the right way, the perfect way. There has to be a perfect way to do this, and there isn't and I've had to stop searching for it.
Emma:And what we also found was we started by recruiting our friends and reaching out to other podcasters of like, hey, would you do this with us? We'd really love to do this, and it snowballed very quickly. People started reaching out to us wanting to talk, wanting to share, and so we're like people want to talk, people want to share their stories, their journeys and, to this day, we have tons of people reaching out to us wanting to still come on the podcast and share their stories, and a lot of them don't have a platform, don't do YouTube or podcast or something like that. Some of them are and some of them do, but a lot of people are just living their life and they're like I want to share my story about my relationship journey, and that so much of the power for us of being able to lift up many different types of voices and giving people a platform to share.
Finn:And then the thing that we learned is that, as we started getting messages from people, is people going? Hey, I don't feel alone.
Finn:That was the biggest thing that started to happen is I didn't know there was somebody else out there who did that, like I do that, or I thought I was the only one, and now I'm not alone, thank you. And so that is really now the driving force is we want you to know you're not alone. There might not be millions of you, but you're not alone. We've heard some wild and crazy shit, and you're not alone.
Carrie Jeroslow:That was the feeling that I had. I remember very clearly I didn't feel so alone, and it wasn't that I heard someone doing exactly the way that I was doing it. It was just that, oh, there's other people stretching the boundaries of what is possible, and that was exciting to me. So I'd love to hear some of the big takeaways other than we got the everyone does it in their own way, but what are some of your big takeaways from all of the people that you've met and talked to?
Emma:That's such a wonderful question and also in some ways difficult to answer because there are so many. My brain's going 20 places.
Finn:I love that question, carrie, and I think maybe the way I'll start it is saying some of my favorite stories that we hear, and not that I pick favorites, but themes that I love are when people are sort of holding up a middle finger to the expectation of what is supposed to happen, and so the things that fall under there would be like people who have come through an infidelity, and we've had people sometimes accuse us, or accuse me particularly, of being pro-infidelity, and it's not that I am. It's, if it happens. I love that there are people out there who are going no, we don't have to just throw the whole thing away and break up and I never talked to you again and my family has to hate your family. It's those. It's the times where people are doing something, where you're expected to do one thing.
Finn:We had a couple who the guy had been cheating on his wife for many, many, many years. They'd been married over 30 years. Turns out he was gay and he came out to her after 33 years. And what they did? They looked at it and they said, okay, well, you've been doing this for years and years and years. I want to start doing this because I want to have these experiences.
Finn:I want to meet people who are actually into me now that I know you're not, let's be best friends who stay married and are now exploring with other partners, and so to me, those are the times where I'm like that's a huge win, fuck all of the stuff that we're told we're supposed to do, and these people take it and they rewrite it, and I think then you get to talk to them and see the joy and the happiness, the number of people we've talked to who've overcome an infidelity or turned it into something else, and their relationship is super strong.
Finn:Super powerful because they didn't just say, well, we're supposed to. And so I think that's one of the things that I love so much is when people look at the thing they're supposed to do based on what everyone tells them and say, nah, I'm going to do it different because this is what I truly want and this is what we truly want, and we're just going to do it and we're going to figure it out. And many times they don't have a framework because there's not a great place you can go to and be like. Well, my partner has been cheating on me for years and years, and years.
Carrie Jeroslow:I'm thinking about staying with them. There's so much shame, too, in that of like how could you dare do that and forgive that person? And I look at it from my parents, who had that whole thing. They went the traditional route of infidelity to divorce, to anger, to not forgiveness, to all of the stuff that's already written, and I wonder what would have happened if there was another option, like you're talking about.
Emma:Right. We've also talked to people who have had one partner grow out of the relationship, or both of them grow out of the relationship of the way it was, and figure out how to rewrite that relationship for themselves. For example, one person. They discovered that one of them was wanting a same-sex partner and they transitioned their relationship into a co-parenting relationship. They still have a relationship. They changed it because they wanted to be in each other's in some way. They needed to change because one of them changed what they wanted and instead of just completely dismantling everything, they were able to dismantle what didn't work and keep what was working.
Carrie Jeroslow:That sounds revolutionary. It's not throwing everything out because one thing isn't working. Let's just throw the whole thing out. And I think it takes a lot of courage and a lot of self-awareness to be able to say what we were doing is not working, but what is working and is there a way to keep what's working and expand to the next version of whatever our relationship is?
Emma:Another takeaway I wanted to add was that you can rewrite and discover a different relationship structure at any point in your life. We have talked to people who discovered this and tried opening their relationship, or open a relationship of some sort, in their 20s. We also have people that have not done this until their 70s and 80s and still have been able to embrace it and feel like they're living their true selves even at that age of life, and that's a huge takeaway. There's nothing that's too late.
Carrie Jeroslow:And if you make a decision, you're not stuck in it for the rest of your life and it definitely takes a lot of work and courage to say what we're doing was working a year ago, but I'm not feeling as resonant with it right now. So how can we talk about shifting it? Which is really scary to go into that conversation and know that that conversation can come up anytime, but it's also very liberating.
Finn:Totally, and I think along that same vein, one of the things we've seen is it's this catch 22. We've seen it go both ways right. There's the couples, or there's people who've opened a partnership from right at the beginning, similar to what we did, or maybe a year or so in and there's then often these, the people who discover it. Maybe they're empty nesters now and they finally have some time when it starts to come up 20 or 30 years into a marriage. And now you're opening up something that's been this sealed up tight of stability and you're injecting-.
Emma:Or at least perceived stability Sure.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yes, thank you, Emma.
Finn:You're injecting a little bit of chaos into it and you're breaking it up, and so we've seen it all. And I just want to say to something Emma said earlier it's not easy to do that. It is really hard to open up a 30-year marriage and say now we're going to be a little more autonomous, you might really love somebody other than me, and those are not things that you often think about when you're going through the as well the uncertainty of it all and the real breaking apart, because there has to be a certain amount of destruction to then rebuild a new version.
Finn:One thing that we've focused on a lot and the thing you just said about there has to be some destruction before you can rebuild and a lot of what we've talked about are people opening up a partnership versus. We also talk to so many people who are solo poly or they're on this journey, quote unquote, on their own, so they don't have an anchor partner, they don't have a nesting partner. That's them exploring non-monogamy, forming partnerships that maybe aren't their primary focus.
Emma:People describe it as their primary focus, and their primary relationship is themselves.
Finn:Yeah Right, yeah Right. And so I didn't want to overlook the vast amount of people who are doing this solo adventure, because there is still a I have to destroy all of the norms and all of the pressure that people are putting on me Like when are you going to settle down, when are you going to find that perfect boyfriend, when are you going to find your husband, your wife, all of the things they have to destroy all of that and fight it off. Probably nonstop people going oh maybe you're just a slut, you're just like casual relationships versus no, I have three very serious partners that I am very deeply committed to. It's not casual at all, and so there's a lot of having to destroy the incoming pressures to conform, and it was important to put that out there, because the solo poly people often get a little bit overlooked versus the hey we're, it's very couple-centric.
Finn:The couple's privilege shows up everywhere, even when we talk about the relationship diversity.
Carrie Jeroslow:It really does. And I love that you brought up solo poly. I just did a whole episode about solo poly because there are so many myths and judgments and that those two ideas solo and poly poly can't coexist, that they're opposite or you can't be solo and be poly, and so I love that you brought that up and there is a lot of destruction that needs to happen there. And then I just did an episode with Dr Eli Schaff about the monopoly dynamic and how much judgment and stigma is with that. Have you guys interviewed people in that dynamic?
Finn:Yeah, totally. It's another one of our favorites, I think, because that's a place where people are getting those middle fingers up again saying, well, this could never work. You're going to go out and have multiple relationships, or even just like casual fun, and your partner is going to stay at home and support you, and that's messed up.
Emma:Or maybe not even stay at home. There's one person that's interested in having multiple connections with other people and somebody else who's not, and they figure out what works best for them.
Finn:These are some super fun conversations that we get to have. We had one couple, two women, who one of them is non-monogamous, loves going out, and it was like I love home renovation, so she goes out for a weekend and I stay home and build a closet or fix something around the house and I have a great time, and she has a great time, and everybody wins and nobody feels shitty at the end of the weekend and it's perfect. Not perfect, perfect, but it's yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:They're each having their needs met, and that is again the judgment of well, if you're doing that, I should want to do that too, but I don't want to do that because I know myself and I'm happy at home doing home renovation projects, and what I think is very helpful when you're in that process of destruction is community, which is foundational to what you're doing with the podcast and how you bring all of this awareness and education into the world is community. You have an exceptional community and, please everyone I'm going to link their website in the show notes so you can connect and learn more about their community, because I am a part of this community and I am so amazed at what you have created this space of inclusivity, love, care, nurture, fun, sexiness it's all there. It's just what you're needing in the moment. So I would love for you to talk a little bit more about your community, how your community started, where it is now and how people can engage with it.
Finn:Emma and I went through a lot of this journey together, so if she had a crappy experience, I could be there for her. If I'm having a crappy experience, she can be there for me. We can walk away from a party that was maybe suboptimal and we can laugh about it on the car ride home and grab a Frosty at Wendy's at four in the morning and have a good time versus you leave by yourself.
Finn:That's a totally different car ride home you don't have anybody you can talk to that about, a totally different car ride home you don't have anybody you can talk to that about. And so the community came to be a place where people can come and have those connections where they can say, hey, I'm going out on a date tonight. Could somebody be my support so I can text you later to let you know I'm safe. We've had people do that or like accountability partners in there, or just hey, I'm really struggling and I don't know anybody who's done this, has anybody? And somebody will throw their hand up, say give me a call, let's jump on a Zoom.
Emma:I just wanted to jump in and explain a little bit about how we built this community and what our intentions are here.
Emma:About a year into our podcast, we definitely saw a need of people wanting to connect more besides just sharing their stories.
Emma:People wanted to connect more with each other and we started figuring out a way to do that, and it has grown and shifted over time. But the ultimate goal is to give people that space to connect, to support one another, to not feel alone, to find their people, and we always say we'd love for you to check out our community, come and see if it's a good fit. If it's not a good fit for you, okay. We understand it's not a good fit for everybody, but for some people it is, and we want to have a space where people can support each other and learn from each other, because the community is made up of so many different types of people they're not all doing it the same way by any means, and so I think there's a lot of power there as well, and it's slowly grown over time, and we're so grateful to everyone who has been part of the community that we've built, and it's been a truly amazing and life-changing experience for us as well, building this community.
Carrie Jeroslow:It's an incredible community. I was inspired when I first joined at all of the questions and the education that you had in terms of consent, in terms of how people interact in it. It is very loving and caring, but also very strong, clear rules and boundaries, and I felt very safe going into the community and even messaging a little bit. I don't typically message in communities. I tend to go in and lurk and get a vibe and maybe say a little something here and there. But I always felt very safe in that community and I was so impressed with all that you do to create such a safe space for people to come in and talk about pretty intimate things.
Finn:Well, thank you. That means a lot and I think one of the things about community is, at a certain point it takes care of itself in some ways, because it's small enough still that we have about 300 people and I would say a good 100, 150 of them are this tight little friend network. There's other people engage and interact, but after a year, six months in there, people are there to not weed out the bad ones, but to be like hey, call them in. How do we help these people show up? Better, not get rid of them, but hey, let's all grow together. And I think that's what's been beautiful about it is the way the community has lifted itself up and it heals itself at times and it pulls itself together and supports itself and we try to hold that space for it. But it really does take care of itself in a lot of ways, which was unexpected and quite powerful for us.
Emma:Because we encourage people. We want people to take care of themselves and each other within the community. Take care of themselves and each other within the community. One of our number one guideline rule to rule them all is be respectful. And there's others. We have other guidelines as well, but that is the main one of lead with respect and kindness.
Carrie Jeroslow:I definitely feel that and anytime I go into the community, and the other thing that I really love about your community is you don't just have an online component, that there is possibility to go and meet people, which I was able to do this past year in Atlanta, and you have other in-person retreats coming up right.
Emma:Yes, we do. We're really excited. We have been slowly building these in-person retreats to complement our online community. We do have one coming up in September we're super excited about that and it's going to be September 13th to the 15th in the San Francisco Bay Area. We have multiple things planned for that weekend and it's going to be a really exciting time to bring people together in person and we're hoping to build more. Really exciting time to bring people together in person and we're hoping to build more of these throughout the years as well.
Finn:We've loosely structured them in a way that gives people a lot of time to connect. So we try to put forth games or events that are really authentic, relating based. So we do like a speed friending thing with questions. And then we've got a workshop hosted by our mutual friend Libby Sinbach from the Making Polyamory Work podcast. She does a play shop, a consent and boundaries workshop. That is amazing and gives people an opportunity to go deeper and get to know each other and learn what consent and boundaries feel like in their body. And then multiple dinners and meals and other activities to really give you time to be a human and meet other humans and play around.
Emma:We also encourage people to plan your own activities and throw them in our online community. We're under the location for the weekend so that people can see them and they can join. If someone wants to plan a hike, awesome Plan, it throw it on the calendar and people can join for the weekend as well. So we provide a structure and events throughout the weekend, but it's not the only thing.
Carrie Jeroslow:And I would really encourage anyone that has the ability to get there to do it, because there's something really special about being in the same space with people who are challenging norms. It was so special to be in a space for me where I could talk about my relationship structure openly and not feel different, and everyone was really open to talk about. Well, this is what my relationship ecosystem looks like right now and this is what it was and this is what I'm dealing with and this is my challenges, and we could just be with each other in that space. It was so fulfilling for me, especially as an introvert who, you know, tends to want to just be in my own little world. I feel more comfortable, but I felt very inspired by being in person with people. So how can people, if they're interested in this in-person event in the Bay Area, how can they get more information?
Finn:The best place to do that would be on our website, and at the top there's a community tab and right below that, by the time this comes out, I might have revamped this page, but it will still be very prominent on this page. There's a link there that says learn about the retreat and it's going to be the program guide for the whole weekend and it lays out all of the different activities roughly when they're happening and then at that point you would need to join the community so you can fill out the application. It takes 10 or 15 minutes to do and then we will review that. Let you in.
Finn:And also we're offering right now this summer leading up to the retreat, if somebody wants to try out the community for a month. You still need to do the application, because that's one of the real key way we keep the community safe is asking you some questions about our guidelines and all of the stuff that you'll learn about through the application process. But yeah, we'll do during a free month trial so you can check it out, decide if it feels like a good fit and then you can come join us here in the San Francisco Bay Area or we're going to start having two to three of these a year spread out around the country.
Finn:So, there'll be one in Atlanta next April, may timeframe, and then back out here in the Bay, and we're working on one in the Northeast, but we need a little time on that because it's a long ways from the Bay.
Emma:Information, as Finn said, about the retreat and everything is on that community tab. But you can also, if you're just interested in right now, checking out the online community, the virtual community. All of that is right there as well. So just wanted to I'm sure that was clear in what he said, but I wanted to re-emphasize that point of all of the information is right there and even if you can't make the in-person retreat, come and check out the online community as well.
Carrie Jeroslow:I second that. It is incredible. I want to go back to another one of your offerings, because I think this ties into relationship diversity, and your expertise is that you have a workshop that's called Is there a Right Way to Do Non-Monogamy?
Finn:Yeah, we did this workshop a few years ago for the first time in person at Southwest Love Fest, and I think the main takeaway that we've talked about all day today is there isn't a right way. So spoiler alert that's the answer.
Emma:But then what we?
Finn:do is we go through a handful of myths and misconceptions about non-monogamy and what it is and how people do it, and we break down what we see as the myth and then what we see as the reality behind that. And then we put you in a small group of a handful of people and you get to talk about what's your experience about this. One of those myths, for example, is that you have to actively be dating or in relationships with multiple people, to be polyamorous or to be non-monogamous, and we don't feel that's true. And then we'll put you in a small group and be like well, what's your opinion? How do you feel? What's your life like? And that gives people a chance to be like oh, I've been poly for 30 years. I have no partners right now. I'm loving it because I'm writing a book or I'm doing a huge work thing, and you get to really hear it from people rather than us trying to drill it into you. It's a really fun workshop and we enjoy doing it.
Emma:We are excited to be doing that at some point soon. We don't have exact dates once this comes out, but just keep an eye on our website and it'll be announced there. That'd probably be the best way to find out about it.
Carrie Jeroslow:It sounds like an amazing workshop. I would like to attend it. It sounds like an amazing workshop. I would like to attend it. So I'm going to hopefully get to know when you all are doing it. But if someone out there is in their own journey of relationship diversity, they're questioning maybe they've been monogamous, maybe they've been non-monogamous, maybe they've been swinging, but they're just not sure what is right for them because they've been following everyone else's rules. What is right for them because they've been following everyone else's rules, what could be one way that they could take a step forward into getting to know what they want and what kind of non-monogamy would be right for them?
Emma:That's an excellent question, yeah, and at the end of the day, you could do it a lot of different ways, which isn't really helpful.
Finn:Is there a right way to know exactly how to do non-monogamy? Is there a?
Carrie Jeroslow:right way to determine what is the best way.
Finn:Yeah, I think, a few things that I recommend. And again, I think this is also truly like everybody learns a little differently, and so we know some people they just want to read every single book out there. We know some people who've listened to all of our episodes some people multiple times. But I think for me, I think all of the book learning and theoretical learning is really great. I also think there's some value in getting out and experiencing it in person. I think I often encourage people to go to events.
Finn:Just start talking to people, yeah start getting out in the real world. Take what you learned in Polysecure or Polywise or the Ethical Slot and go to a meet and greet. Go jump on. There's Facebook groups all over the place. There's meetup groups. There's different communities. There's our community. There's Maltiamory's community, libby's community, there's multi-amory's community Libby's got a community through making polyamory work. Find a community and start getting into it firsthand. You're not going to walk in the door and people are going to be on you like, oh, fresh meat. If that happens, let your organizer know that that's happening, because that shouldn't happen. This should be a place for you to show up and be like I'm here to learn, I don't know what I'm doing. What do you do, person? Okay, thank you. What do you do, person? And it should be a place that you can come and learn and keep going back and build yourself. A community is truly the thing that I think is the most valuable thing you can do in this world.
Emma:And I also would add go at your own pace. For some people that looks a lot faster than other people. Sometimes somebody wants to dive right in, just consume it all, date. Other people completely go 100% all in, which is amazing, and other people are still 100% all in of this exploration, but the exploration itself may look really different and be really slow and ebb and flow in their life, and that's more than okay too. That's encouraged, and so I think again, try some things.
Emma:I think the biggest thing, as Finn said, is start talking to people. Try some different things. See what resonates, see what doesn't pay attention to that, and I think for a lot of people that does involve slowing down. That does involve taking your time to really sit with conversations, with things you're listening to or reading and talking to people about, and see what really fits, what feels like it fits and what it doesn't, and then maybe experimenting. A lot of this is about experimenting and trying different things on to see what might work and not being also afraid to change over time. We all grow and change as humans, and so I think that just because you're choosing one thing right now I know we mentioned this earlier in the episode it doesn't mean that's the decision for the rest of your life.
Carrie Jeroslow:That's incredibly helpful what you just said, because there is something about trying it, because you can think what it would be like in your mind, but until you get into it to say, ooh, I thought that would be better, but it actually doesn't feel great, that doesn't feel like the way that I want to experience it, so let me just step back and learn more. Or you try something and you're like, oh my God, that felt't feel like the way that I wanna experience it, so let me just step back and learn more. Or you try something and you're like, oh my God, that felt amazing. Wow, never felt so great. Or somewhere in between can be all the spectrum of feelings. But really trying things and also with the mindset of some things are gonna feel good and some things aren't, and that's okay. If it doesn't feel good, that doesn't mean the whole thing won't feel good, it just means that that part didn't feel good. And that's how you start to design what works for you in this moment which, as Emma says, changes and evolves.
Finn:Yeah, I love that and I think the idea that you do have to give it a whirl and we've talked to again so many people who've done this and they start down one path. They think I'm going to really like this and they start into it. They're like I did not like that, okay, and then I pivoted here, I pivoted there, and it's an interesting thing to think about. When you're doing that on your own, it's one journey. And when you're doing that with or alongside a partner and you get to start seeing each other like I turned left, Emma turned right, and we're like, oh my God, what do we do here? We just turned opposite directions from this same path and then figuring out how do we support ourselves in that, how do we support our partners in that, without taking it super personally.
Finn:There's a lot that goes into this to really do this dance together, and maybe my own two cents is to try to. If you can lean into a little bit of that adventure. In ways, as you said, slowing down can really help. That way, if I turn left and she turns right, but we turned slowly versus, I'm like wait, where'd you go? I don't even see you anymore.
Emma:It's totally different if you can slow it down, so I love that advice as well, and one other thing I'd add is many people say we say it like comes down to communication and being open and honest with people, and that can also be a learning journey of how to do that. But I would recommend encourage from life lessons. More communication is usually better than no communication or little communication, even if it's messy, even if you're not sure if you're figuring it out. So I think that being graceful with yourself in that process and being graceful with others that you interact with and sometimes it is really, really messy, but life is messy. Relationships in general are messy, no matter how you're doing them. They can be throughout life. That's a journey and so embracing that, embracing the conversation, and messy doesn't always mean bad either. It's part of the adventure.
Carrie Jeroslow:And it's the part of the chaos that comes into order, that goes into chaos, and that messy sometimes is good because, again, I think messiness is part of the destruction and destruction sounds really dramatic, but it doesn't always have to be that huge destruction, but that is in that messy phase. If it just doesn't feel Dismantling maybe yeah, dismantling, I like that better than destruction, although sometimes destruction is what it is.
Finn:And to that, sometimes destruction is what needs to happen. And that's the thing we've learned about ourselves at times, too is we can both be a bit stubborn and trying to take one brick out of the wall at a time. Sometimes the motivation to do that is really not there and sometimes we have to blow the wall apart Again. Your mileage may vary, but like we've found ourselves at times where we're like we've been caught in patterns for years and years and years that we almost had to do something extreme to break the loop, to get us onto a new path. Been there, yeah, yeah, it's fun, isn't it? It's a fun ride, it's it's so much fun.
Carrie Jeroslow:But community, community. Go look at Emma and Ben's community. Oh my gosh, you all have so much wisdom. I'm really honored and thankful to have you as friends in this journey that we're normalizing relationship diversity, non-monogamy, even intentional monogamy, solo, poly, it all. We are in this process of normalizing it and I'm grateful to be in this with you because you all have led the way and have paved the path for me and it has made it a little bit easier for me. So thank you so much for being here. Everyone, please go first and listen to Emma and Finn's podcast If you have not listened to Normalizing Non-Monogamy, you will learn so much and then go, please check out their community. Emma and Finn, thank you so much for being here. You all are amazing.
Emma:Thank you so much, keri, for having us for this wonderful conversation, and I do want to just add one quick note. If people do go and listen to the podcast you're not familiar with it, feel free to jump around. If you start listening to something and it doesn't resonate, go click on somebody else's. We also encourage you to listen through the story, because something might resonate in that story. But if you're not feeling it, everybody's story is not for everybody. That's the whole point of being human and highlighting different types of people, and also we feel like you can learn a lot from listening to different types of people. So choose your own adventure. But I just wanted to note that there's no right way to listen to the podcast either.
Carrie Jeroslow:It's the theme. There's no right way to do anything.
Finn:Exactly no right way to do life.
Carrie Jeroslow:Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast. Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships, will shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel, where I'll give you even more free resources and information, all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes.
Carrie Jeroslow:Stay curious. Every relationship is as unique as you are. Are you wondering why you never seem to find lasting fulfillment in your relationships? Or do you create the same kinds of relationship experiences over and over again? Can you never seem to find even one person who you want to explore a relationship with? Have you just given up hope altogether.
Carrie Jeroslow:If this sounds like you, my recent book why Do they Always Break Up With Me is the perfect place to start. My recent book, why Do they Always Break Up With Me is the perfect place to start. The foundation of any relationship, whether intimate or not, is the relationship we have with ourselves. In the book, I lead you through eight clear steps to start or continue your self-exploration journey. You'll learn about the importance of self-acceptance, gratitude, belief, shifting and forgiveness, and given exercises to experience these life-changing concepts. This is the process I use to shift my relationships from continual heartbreak to what they are now fulfilling, soul-nourishing, compassionate and loving. It is possible for you. This book can set you on a path to get there. Currently available through Amazon or through the link in the show notes.
