Relationship Diversity Podcast
Every relationship is as unique as you are. Relationship Diversity Podcast aims to celebrate, question, and explore all aspects of relationships and relationship structure diversity. Together, we’ll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships. We’ll ask challenging and transformational questions, like: Who am I? What do I really want in my relationships? Am I in this relationship structure because it’s all I know or is it really the fullest expression of who I am? Being curious, having courage to look within, and asking these important questions creates the space for joy-filled, soul-nourishing relationships. Your host and guide, Carrie Jeroslow is an International Best-Selling Author, Conscious Relationship Coach, and Intuitive. Through this podcast, she helps to normalize discussions about all different kinds of relationship structures from soloamory to monogamy to polyamory, and everything in between. This is a space of inclusivity and acceptance. The time is NOW to shift the conversation to a new paradigm of conscious, intentional, and diverse relationships.Join in as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become.
Relationship Diversity Podcast
Ep. 109: The Mono/Poly Relationship: Challenges and Solutions with Dr. Elisabeth Sheff
Episode 109:
The Mono/Poly Relationship: Challenges and Solutions with Dr. Elisabeth Sheff
In this episode I speak with my friend, renowned researcher and coach Dr. Elisabeth Sheff returns to discuss the mono-poly relationship dynamic. We explore the challenges, misconceptions, and potential strategies for making such relationships work, emphasizing the importance of meeting partners' needs, effective communication, and mutual understanding. Dr. Sheff shares insights from her research and personal experiences, offering guidance for those navigating relationships where one partner desires monogamy and the other seeks polyamory.
We also discuss the emotional and social hurdles often faced by couples in these dynamics and the significance of seeking support and continued re-evaluation in relationships.
Connect with Dr. Eli:
Website | Instagram | LinkedIn | Waitlist for Eli’s Mono/Poly Course
Episode 42: Conversations with Dr. Elisabeth Sheff about the Evolution of Diverse Relationships and The Bonding Project
Mono in a Poly World: What to Do When Your Partner Is Polyamorous and You Aren't by Tazmyn Ozga
00:00 Introduction to Relationship Compromises
00:45 Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast
01:47 Introducing Dr. Elisabeth Sheff
05:15 Personal Journey into Polyamory
07:12 Challenges and Realizations in Polyamory
13:56 Understanding the Mono-Poly Dynamic
25:48 Understanding Monogamous and Polyamorous Wiring
28:40 Navigating the Mono-Poly Relationship Dynamic
31:47 Debunking Myths and Addressing Shame
34:48 Finding Balance and Compromise
45:58 Resources and Support for Mono-Poly Relationships
50:53 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
This is Relationships Reimagined.
Join the conversation as we dive into a new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.
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Podcast Music by Zachariah Hickman
Please note: I am not a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, or social worker. I am not attempting to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any physical, mental, or emotional issue, disease, or condition. The information provided in or through my podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment provided by your own Medical Provider or Mental Health Provider. Always seek the advice of your own Medical Provider and/or Mental Health Provider regarding any questions or concerns you have about your specific circumstance.
I would say that they maybe not be completely equitable on every single level, but people compromise in relationships a lot. So, yes, maybe there is a compromise around monogamy and polyamory. Maybe the monogamous person isn't thrilled and that's not their ideal format, but when it works is generally when the polyamorous person really overcompensates and really dotes on their monogamous partner to ensure that the monogamous partner's needs are very well met. Then that kind of okay, honey, you're doing this for me, I'm going to go out of my way for you as well, ends up if you zoom out, feeling equitable and that can last.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Keri Jaroslow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.
Speaker 2:Today is my second time talking with renowned researcher and coach, dr Elizabeth Sheff, and now, after a year of working together on the bonding project, I can now call Eli my friend. In this conversation we're going to talk about the monopoly dynamic in relationships, what it is, how to navigate it and what is needed to make this structure work well for couples who choose it. But first a little about her, dr Elizabeth Eli Sheff is a researcher, expert witness, coach, speaker and educational consultant With a PhD in sociology and certification as a sexuality educator from ASEC. Dr Eli specializes in gender and sexual minority families, consensual non-monogamy and kink BDSM. Monogamy and kink BDSM. Shef is the foremost academic expert on polyamorous families with children, and her 25-plus year polyamorous family study is the only longitudinal study of poly families with children to date. Dr Eli has served as faculty at seven universities and currently chairs the CNM Legal Issues Team for the American Psychological Association Division 44 Committee on CNM. Chef has published four books, over 30 peer-reviewed journal articles and chapters, and is currently editing a series of books on relationship and sexual diversity.
Speaker 2:Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I have got my friend on this podcast. I can now call her my friend. I have Dr Elizabeth Sheff here. If you will remember, she has been on the podcast back in April of 2023, where we talked all about the evolution of diverse relationships through her 25-year longitudinal study of polyamorous families and polyamory. She has a wealth of information and so we had just met back in April. But now we have spent the last year becoming friends and working together on the bonding project and I'm so excited to have Eli here to talk about the subject that we're going to talk about, which I'll get to in a minute. But, eli, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for having me. It's fun to be back the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me. It's fun to be back. Yes, and we have journeyed together over the last year with working together on the Bonding Hour, which is the podcast style interview series with the Bonding Project, and that has been such a delight to work with you on that. And today we are going to be talking about a dynamic that I've wanted to talk about for a long time and that you have been teaching on, so you have incredible insights and that is the monopoly dynamic. So we're going to get all into that what it is if you don't know, and more information about it, who it works really well for, and all these other things. But first, for those of you who don't know, dr Elizabeth Schaaf, eli, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So I got interested in studying polyamory. I was going to say ass backwards. Can I say that on a podcast, you can say whatever you want?
Speaker 2:Yes, you can.
Speaker 1:Okay, more because I was afraid of it, because I had a partner who really wanted it and my immediate reaction was negative. That doesn't sound good to me at all. That sounds uncomfortable. I'd be feeling left out and brought up a lot of insecurities for me. Am I too fat? Am I bad in bed? Is there some reason that this person needs other people? Somehow I am not good enough.
Speaker 1:And this person who ended up becoming my ex-husband was saying it's not that there's something wrong with you, it's that he would want multiple partners, no matter who he was with. That was part of who he really was and I actually believe that. But he didn't tell me the whole truth at the time. I think maybe he didn't even know the whole truth. His truth, ultimately, was that the only form of multiple partnership he was actually open to was him with multiple women. He presented it as if it was multiple partnership in general, but he really wanted polygyny One dude, multiple chicks, not polyamory, where people of any gender can have anybody else of any gender. I would never have agreed to the one penis policy if he had brought it out initially and never did agree to it. It eventually broke us up, not that I'm that penis oriented but that he wanted a form of non-monogamy that was really focused on him. He needed to be the center of attention and he couldn't handle me. Being focused on someone else was not acceptable for him. So I could see during that experience why I didn't like polyamory under those circumstances. But I couldn't tell whether I didn't like polyamory because of the way he and I did it, which was fucked up one side and down the next. It was all the classical unicorn hunting couple privilege bullshit ended up being characteristic of mostly him and what he was looking for. I was not down with that and it ended up breaking us up eventually and I just wasn't sure now that I'm not doing it that way.
Speaker 1:I had that negative reaction to polyamory but then I saw how, oh, I could actually see how having two partners focused on me could be kind of fun. I could see how having this stable dad guy and this other intellectual person could be super fun for me. Does that mean I'm actually polyamorous and I just didn't want to do it the way my ex wanted to do it, or not? So after I divorced my ex-husband, I went through a phase of what I think of as polysexuality where I was like, all right, I'm going to date. I had gotten together with him when I was really young.
Speaker 1:I didn't have very many relationships. I was a late bloomer, relationship-wise. During my polysexual phase I realized I could date people and I really did not care who they had sex with. Have sex with as many people as you want, I don't care. No skin in the game for me. I just want to see you Tuesday night. Let's have fun, and I want you to go away Until I met someone I really cared about and then, all of a sudden, I had no interest in seeing other people.
Speaker 2:And by this point you, you had been studying polyamory, right, you had been doing your research and because in your marriage that was in the nineties, yeah, he and I met in the nineties.
Speaker 1:We didn't marry until the mid two thousands.
Speaker 2:Your research started in the late nineties, right 1996. Yes, when I started. So he and I got together in 93. So I was young, I was in college Right and so then the early nineties, there really wasn't that much information about polyamory out there.
Speaker 2:There wasn't a lot of studies, and so you were a part of building the information and doing some of the initial research on polyamory. So you entered into these other relationships with more information and more knowledge and more information about what was going on in the world. You were a part of building that, and while also building it, I'm thinking you probably also got more knowledge about what was going on in the world. You were a part of building that, and while also building it, I'm thinking you probably also got more knowledge about it. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yes, as an intellectual, I intellectualize things that frighten me. So my ex and I had already been talking about it for multiple years, of him wanting additional partners, me being so freaked out about it us talking about how would that work I was really confused. He was saying he wanted to be lifelong partners but he didn't want to be monogamous and he didn't want to get married. And I was like how do you do lifelong partnership without monogamy and marriage? And now I totally see how that is possible and people totally do that. But I was in my early 20s and didn't know shit and polyamory wasn't really discussed. The word had been coined but no one was really talking about it, not nearly the way people talk about it now. So I definitely felt adrift and not even sure how to get more information about it and didn't know people who were doing it. And talking about it was weird. So eventually I went to graduate school and we moved to a different place and I heard on the radio an interview with the then director of Lovingmore, which was at the time the biggest and longest standing and most substantial element in the polyamorous community.
Speaker 1:For years and years Ryan Mearing had been a longtime member of the Carista clan, which was one of the early proto-polyamorous communes in San Francisco. They used to publish a magazine. They'd been around for well over a decade by that point and were some of the foundational folks in polyamory. Well, it turns out that they were hosting a support group nearby. So my partner and I went to that and for two years I hung out with those folks wondering when he says he wants multiple partners, I feel terrible, how do you manage that? And they're like well, sometimes it can feel terrible, but sometimes it doesn't hurt at all. So I think about it as approaching the research as a civilian in a way, and then turning to become a researcher. To become a researcher.
Speaker 1:After two years of personal interest I realized no one had studied this and that became my dissertation. I followed 40 polyamorous people, 20 women and 20 men, because in the 90s we were aware that there were more than two genders, but we weren't as aware and it wasn't as common, so I limited it to men and women. That first sample. And that actually got me interested in studying BDSM as well, because my polyamorous respondents kept mentioning interest in and practice of BDSM and I was like, what does that acronym even mean? And they told me and I was like that sounds interesting, why, what's the intersection between these things and why are so many of my respondents mentioning it? So that got me started on the are you kinky study, and so these two have been the mainstay of my academic career is polyamory and BDSM.
Speaker 2:And so, as you were going through this, you're learning, because that's how you learn is, through intellect and going into things to try and make sense in your own life and I want to bring it into that monopoly dynamic because I know that was a similar journey for you in an awareness personally, that led you into more of a studying of the monopoly dynamic. So can you go there and how that began?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. When I first heard about polyamory.
Speaker 1:I had a very negative reaction to it, was really afraid of it on this existential level and I couldn't tell. Is that because I don't want to be polyamorous or because society has always told me that that's not the right way to be? The right way is find a partner, get married, have some children, be a couple. And I wasn't necessarily focused on having Barbie's dream wedding or even marrying a man necessarily. I thought I was going to be a lesbian. Turned out to be mostly a lesbian. So I just couldn't tell. What is the source of my discomfort here? My discomfort is acute and why am I so upset? Investigated that personally, investigated it professionally.
Speaker 1:I think the big difference between polyamorous and monogamous people is that for polyamorous folks, feeling attracted to someone else is not a sign that something is wrong in your relationship. It can be a sign that your heart is beating. For polyamorous people they actually have that. More love, more attention, Becoming attracted to someone doesn't come at the expense of someone else. People like me with a much more singular romantic focus if we move it to someone else, it moves off of the person it used to be on, and so realizations like that really started to give me the inkling that polyamory is a desire for multiple partners, regardless of whether it's called polyamory or something else.
Speaker 1:But desire for multiplicity is a feature of some humans. They are wired that way. That is just who they are. They don't have control over it, they can't turn it off. The same is true for me Desire for one human, one person. Once I'm in love, I have singular focus and I can't turn it off. I have tried so hard to be polyamorous. I think I would have been much happier in my life, in my relationships, if I were naturally polyamorous, because I keep falling in love with open-minded, adventurous people. So I'm wired for monogamy, but I want freedom and it's that freedom, I think, that keeps drawing me to these people who are open-minded and not grasping, trying to lock me down, and they end up being polyamorous.
Speaker 2:Which leads to this monopoly dynamic? Can you give us a definition of?
Speaker 1:monopoly. It's where one person wants an exclusive relationship and another person wants access to multiple partners.
Speaker 2:And I hear so many people say how in the world can that ever work? That feels unfair. I can't even imagine me being happy, being monogamous, and my partner the judgment is, I'm just going to be here doting and waiting on my partner and my partner's just going to go out and screw around or be in other romantic relationships. And how will that ever work? So, eli Sheff, how does that work?
Speaker 1:Very carefully, with careful tending, I would say it can work Absolutely and it hinges on the monogamous person's needs being very well met. Being very well met when the monogamous person feels like their need for love and sex and attention and affection is so well met that they are just full to overflowing. That's when their partner taking time, effort, energy, attention resources to someone else will work. Energy attention resources to someone else will work Absolutely. If the monogamous person is not feeling full, is feeling a scarcity, and then they're going to get even less, that absolutely will not work. It might work for a little while. You could maybe do that if your kid is 17 and you're trying to hang on until they graduate from high school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but not if they're 14. You can't do that for four years, no way. One year maybe, and pretty unhappily, I would say. So what didn't work for me in the monopoly dynamic was the lopsidedness of it that there was with my first partner, this power dynamic that I was more in love with him than he was with me and I felt like, if I said no to polyamory, that I would lose him.
Speaker 2:Right. So your partner wanted it. You did not, but in order to save your relationship, you felt like you needed to be polyamorous. That dynamic, which I've heard it described as polyandrodress, does not work and specifically, if you decide, well, I think I'll just be mono, while my partner is poly, then that is a double wound that people have a really hard time overcoming.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and it's not sustainable, at least certainly not sustainable without significant compensation, and some of the ways people compensate for that often leads to addiction. Alcohol is one of the most popular ways to compensate for people who are unhappy in their relationships and feel like they can't leave. Alcohol is a time-tested way to stay in an unhappy place by numbing yourself out. I don't mean just for people around consensual non-monogamy, I mean all the people with all the problems. Alcohol is probably one of the first and easiest to get Something like that. So you could be unhappily monopoly and alcoholic. That is a steady state that could continue with misery relationship. First of all, the monogamous person needs to feel comfortable with their own monogamy but not necessarily require that of a partner, and I think that's where it's a little easier for me and other people like me. I default realized that I was monogamous because I was acting that way in both of my long-term relationships. I was just not interested in other people and it took a while for that realization to sink in. Once I'm in love with someone, I'm not interested, but that sense of freedom I was talking about before, I don't necessarily need them with me all the time, so when they're off doing something else. As long as my needs are met, I'm okay with them doing that. If my needs aren't met and this is what killed the second monopoly relationship it went really well for a good eight or nine years of her having other relationships and me having access to other relationships if I wanted, but just not availing myself of it. And the way she did her other relationships was really low impact on me and I liked it that that way that they were what I thought of as butterfly women, that they were all a good 20 years younger than her beautiful young women who would flip through and she would chase them around the meadow and they would flit away and then there'd be another butterfly woman who would flip through and the chasing for her was super fun and it happened because they were generally far away. It would happen via text and they would send each other Instagram DMs and things like that. She was on her phone all the time and I never monitored who she was on her phone with, so it didn't really matter to me if she was texting her friend or her sweetie or she was just on her phone. That's fine. It wasn't in my daily experience all the time. Things went to hell when she met someone close by.
Speaker 1:And this person was not just where we live, two miles away, but she really is all that and a bag of fries. She's pretty and charming and funny and sweet and charismatic. She's a cool person, she's real partner material and that would have been okay with me if I still got attention too. But she transferred her attention in a way that she also had with the butterfly women, transferring her attention to them, and I wasn't thrilled with that, but because they were far away, when she put the phone away, she was in the room with me Right. Well, now transferring her attention to this person who was right there, she started blowing me off, she started taking me for granted, she started not making plans with me so she would be free to make plans with this other person.
Speaker 1:I started initiating sex a lot more because I was trying to get her attention and I was like hey, did you notice? I'm all up in your business now, trying to be like hey, notice me. She was like yeah, I want someone else wants me, and that just cut me to the core. So I was like okay, I don't need to be up in your business, that way you come to me when you're ready. We never had sex again. As soon as I stopped initiating she just transferred all of her sexual attention to her girlfriend.
Speaker 1:And even if things had been their usual way for me, I think we probably could have made it through that. But for the first time in our relationship it through that. But for the first time in our relationship something really bad happened to me and I really needed her support and bad things had happened to her repeatedly in our relationship and I had been there for her. I am a devoted partner and I had her back. I was ride or die for that woman and when it came time for her to be ride or die for me, she rode away and that broke my heart so bad that I have not dated. It's been three years and I cannot bring myself to date other people like that woman. Fucking broke me.
Speaker 1:But it sure showed me that what I really want is monogamy. I can tolerate polyamory. Under certain circumstances I can do it. But it's in what I think of as my wiggle room, not my comfort zone. My comfort zone is if I'm fully in love with you, then I want you fully dedicated to me, because I am dedicated to you.
Speaker 1:And here's another difference I would say between people wired as monogamous and people wired as polyamorous. When folks are polyamorous, deeply wired that way, not just acting that way and I don't mean to demean people who only act polyamorously, I mean more that there are people who are in the middle who could be happily polyamorous under certain circumstances and happily monogamous under some circumstances. They're actually pretty flexible about that. I mean the people who are out on the edge of that scale who, even if they're deeply in love with someone, will miss contact with other partners if they aren't at least open to that, feel that lack of ability to inhabit that part of themselves as a deadening, as a loss of self in a way. And for a monogamous person I'm not not inhabiting that, it's almost like. So I've never smoked tobacco. Really I don't like tobacco, so I don't smoke. But it doesn't bother me If I had been a heavy smoker for years and years and I'm not smoking now. I'm not smoking with white knuckles, I'm not smoking.
Speaker 1:The way I'm not smoking is the same way I'm not doing heroin, or the same way I'm not doing all sorts of other things because I don't do them. So for a monogamous person or someone who's really wired for that, it doesn't hurt us not to have access to other people. But for a polyamorous person, not having access to people is like only having a left hand and that bleeds over into when a polyamorous person is with their partner. They're fully with that partner and then when they're with another partner, they're fully with that partner. When a monogamous person, when my partner is somewhere else, part of me is with them, all the time Part of my brain is fully inhabited by in this case still fucking inhabited by my ex-wife. Like I have one plug. In a way. I'm like one of those power strips that you can plug in and then plug a whole bunch of things into.
Speaker 1:You can only plug one thing into me, but a polyamorous person might have like four plugs and there's nothing wrong with them for having four plugs, and there's nothing wrong with me for just having one plug, but I need my plug to be well-filled.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, it sounds like to make a monopoly dynamic work there needs to be so much responsibility that each person takes. Yes, there are polyamorous people. It's like I'm just going to go do whatever relationships I want to do and that's fine if people want to do that and then all of the partners agree. But it's a little bit of an uncompassionate way to be in relationship. Wanting to be monogamous, you each take responsibility and cultivating and growing the relationship to say, yes, I want to be giving my monogamous partner everything that that partner needs and wants, or not everything. We can't be everything, but I need to be aware that I am showing up and taking responsibility and wanting to and excited to be in relationship with this person. And then the monogamous person, I think, also needs to take responsibility to communicate my needs are not being met or this is what I need.
Speaker 2:And then also I find that people in that dynamic, more times than not the monogamous person. They value autonomy. That's a big value in their world. They value even friendships or value other relationships and they value hobbies, interests, and that it can work if both people are taking responsibility, consciously in relationship with each other, aware, filling what each other needs in the way they need it, but also filling their own cup and where one person the poly person, might get their other cup filled with other people and other relationships. The mono person also needs to be responsible to say, instead of just sitting home being like, oh my God, my partner's out with someone, how can I fill my own cup, what are the things that I can do and cultivate within me? And if that beautiful combination can happen, then the mono poly relationship sounds like it could be not easy but fulfilling for both people.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Generally, I would say they're higher maintenance than either a poly poly relationship or a mono mono relationship. It's usually people who really love each other and really want to be together but have this fundamental mismatch and that's a long-term issue with relationships in general. People have that around religion. They have that around like introversion, extroversion or how permeable.
Speaker 2:They have it around sex Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So people have got. It's not only poly-mono relationships that have this mismatch, but I think, because it's sex, people get really upset about it and there's not, like you mentioned before, this shame associated with it. There's not a lot of room to talk about it the way you could, for instance, about religion or something.
Speaker 2:I would love to go into this idea of shame, because I think there is a lot of shame around people going into this dynamic, specifically for someone saying I want to support my partner who identifies as polyamorous or wants to have other relationships, and I also do want to say, whether they're sexual or not or romantic, that they could be a poly romantic relationship, and so I want to support that person, but I also don't feel like I want to do it, and I think there's a lot of shame. I hear a lot of people say, oh how could you let your partner do that? And I'd love to talk more about that, to at least bring it into the light, because shame just keeps it hidden. So I think, maybe, starting with some of the judgments and myths that are associated with the monopoly dynamic, what are some of those myths that you found that are not necessarily always true?
Speaker 1:For one thing, that the relationships are always exploitative or lopsided. I would say that they maybe not be completely equitable on every single level, but people compromise in relationships a lot. People compromise around what are we going to eat. So, yes, maybe there is a compromise around monogamy and polyamory. Maybe the monogamous person isn't thrilled and that's not their ideal format, but when it works is generally when the polyamorous person really overcompensates and really dotes on their monogamous partner to ensure that the monogamous partner's needs are very well met. Then that kind of okay, honey, you're doing this for me, I'm going to go out of my way for you as well, ends up if you zoom out, feeling equitable and that can last.
Speaker 1:That's coming out of relationship satisfaction literature. That says in a polyamorous relationship, when the perceived benefits and disadvantages are equally distributed, there's very high levels of satisfaction. Not that there are no dissatisfaction, but if people feel like we're all in this together and we're all getting goodies and it all kind of sucks sometimes too, but at least we're all doing it together, we're all experiencing the same consequences and the same benefits, whatever the same degree, that can work versus if a monogamous person feels like they are not getting any benefit from this at all and it's all cost for them. That is unsustainable and the benefit doesn't have to be in polyamory necessarily. The benefit could be in some other form.
Speaker 1:So not only have I researched polyamory and lived in two different polymono marriages, but I'm a relationship coach and my specialty is the polymono dynamic. So one couple that I was working with, she really wanted an open relationship and he just could not wrap his mind around it. It was really painful for him and they talked about it for a long time and what they came to was his faith was really important to him and he had wanted to raise their children in his faith and she, as a non-religious person who had been raised Jewish, was like I don't want my kids going to church and I don't necessarily need to take them to shul either, but I don't want you taking them to church. So the kids just didn't do religion.
Speaker 2:But it had hurt him.
Speaker 1:He felt like he gave in on that. So if he is going to give in on polyamory, then he wants her to give in on religion. And she was like, actually, that's okay with me. Not only is it really important to you, but the kids are a little older now and they could have some critical thinking around it. So, yes, especially because this is so important to you. And she said that doesn't mean that I'm going to go to church with you, but you can take the kids. And he was like, great, and he intentionally chose a church that had some positivity in it, like God is love and you can be loving and you can make it through hard things that happen to you.
Speaker 2:And she was like, yes, right, make it through hard things that happen to you, and she was like yes, right, so it's like they both worked together to expand areas that were important to them. That's one huge myth is that it never works. A monopoly dynamic will never work, and what you're saying is that, yes, it can One. They seem to really work together and have a lot of conversations about what was missing in their lives not just in their relationship, but in their lives and they were able to come up with benefits and ways that they could enhance their lives. They looked different, but they both were able to feel more fulfilled in their full life.
Speaker 2:Because that's what I hear a lot is the monogamous person of the monopoly couldn't possibly want that. Have you seen experiences and worked with clients that have debunked that that a person could actually choose monogamous and also be supportive and wanting their partner to be polyamorous? I want that for you because that brings you happiness. But here are ways that maybe I want to travel more, or I want to have time away, so that when you're with your partners, I'm with the kids, but when I'm off traveling on my own, you're with the kids, or go ahead and have other partners, but just don't rub my faces is how I felt, as long as my needs are well met and this makes you so happy.
Speaker 1:I got a benefit from her happiness when she was excited about a butterfly woman and even meeting the partner that she ultimately ignored me in favor of. I was really happy for her that she found this amazing woman that she connected with and how good she felt. It's fun to have a partner who's happy and thrilled. Also, it benefited me when, as I mentioned, I travel quite a bit and I felt guilty sometimes for leaving her alone too much. And when she had another partner that she could hang out with and there was someone else there giving her attention and affection, I felt better. That was a benefit for me when I was on the road. So it benefited my own freedom that she got to have other people and that I got to spend my freedom how I wanted, which didn't include sex with other people, but definitely included going wherever the hell I want to and not having to ask your permission. I will tell you I'm going to be gone for three weeks, but I'm not asking you may I leave? So I think again that's because I'm more in the middle.
Speaker 1:There are some people who are wired deeply monogamously and not only do they want monogamy for themselves, but they want a monogamous partner. And for those folks not going to work and it's not because they are small and grasping and jealous or whatever propaganda bullshit comes out from some polyamorous people who really look down on monogamous people it's like shaming a woman for being unsatisfied in a sexual relationship with a man if she's a lesbian, unsatisfied in a sexual relationship with a man if she's a lesbian. It's okay to be a lesbian and to want relationships with other lesbians. It's okay to be monogamous and to want your partner to be monogamous. The problem comes and this is what I see in my relationship coaching practice quite a bit is when people really really love each other and they have built lives together. And one of them has had this ongoing desire for multiplicity but just didn't feel like they could bring it up, didn't feel like they could talk about it, maybe felt like it made them a bad person. They were slutty, they couldn't commit, had negative social messages around non-monogamy, which is not that unusual. Society is pretty down on non-monogamy, way more down on consensual non-monogamy than on cheating, which I find ludicrous, totally.
Speaker 1:But so sometimes people who want a non-monogamous relationship and aren't trying to fuck their partners over or trying to cheat they want to do it ethically still feel bad about themselves for wanting it, Because society says, oh, you're doing this to your partner, but they're not. They are just being who they are. So sometimes, after years and years, they're like honey. I've wanted this for a long time. I've been carrying this burden of wanting multiple partners and while I love you so much, it's been a heavy burden for me to carry. In my experience, once that person says it, they feel much better. They've let this weight off their chest. Frequently the weight then transfers to their partner, who's like holy shit, I didn't realize you've been unhappy this whole time and now you want multiple partners, and what the fuck then?
Speaker 1:the polyamorous person or the multiplistic person is like I finally got that off my chest. And the the multiplistic person is like I finally got that off my chest. And the monogamous person is like load of rocks Over time. If they can work it out, generally it means both of them kind of stretching towards the center. So the relationship is probably more open than the monogamous person wants it to be, and probably more open than the monogamous person wants it to be, and probably more closed than the polyamorous person wants it to be. But they found a middle, that is in their mutual wiggle room.
Speaker 2:It's like baby steps too. This is one of the reasons why I feel so drawn to the idea of relationship diversity. Clearly, I have the podcast about it. But if we can break out of all of the boxes, even the poly box, and we say who are the two people involved and what are these two people or three people, whatever it is, what are the needs and desires and priorities and values, and how can we design something that will give us some of what we're needing and feeling like we're missing, and if we can get in that idea of we have this whole spectrum of how we can design our relationships, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:And then, even if we decide on something, knowing that is a continual evolution of, okay, we did this, now we've just stepped out, now that doesn't feel good, but this does feel good, how can we continually re-negotiate, redesign, re-evaluate what is going on? Then I feel like that happens in all relationships. If we are conscious about it, we can be in default mode and say, well, this is just what we've always done and it doesn't matter. We'll just numb the sides of ourselves that we're not getting fulfilled.
Speaker 2:But if we truly want to go into it, it is a constant redesign and I always say there are no two people that are alike in this world and then you bring them together. That's a completely unique relationship. So having someone like Eli who can lead you through this negotiation, this design because I also think that is really helpful when you're like, no, I can't make this work I just can't possibly make it work for me to be monogamous and you to be polyamorous to bring in someone like Eli who can help ask these questions, to find this middle ground, I think would be incredibly helpful, because you're outside of the relationship, you have more of a bird's eye view of it.
Speaker 1:And I've worked with a whole bunch of different people who've come up with creative ways to manage this soothing strategy, especially for a monogamous person who is trying to decide what to do with themselves when their partner is out with someone else. And, like I mentioned that idea that a polyamorous person is often with the partner they're with, like they're in the moment with that person Not that monogamous people, we aren't in the moment, but part of our mind is always with that other person.
Speaker 1:And if what that other person is doing is having sex with someone, else the monogamous person's mind needs soothing strategies, needs distraction strategies and needs part of those. Soothing strategies are going to work much better if their needs are well met. Then they could say, okay, remember this.
Speaker 2:Or yes, they're off getting attention from someone else, but here we are having lunch with our friend and is in that book, or we went on a little trip to see our sister, but certainly not, as you mentioned, sitting alone at home in the dark, but certainly not, as you mentioned, sitting alone at home in the dark, freezing, crying, starving, and so that leads me to asking you about resources. Are there resources for people who are finding themselves in this dynamic, and maybe someone out there whose partner has come to them and said I feel like I've always identified as polyamorous and the other partner's thinking I do not think, I want to go there, but I don't even know how that dynamic could work. Where can they go to learn more about it? Because I think education helps to release shame and to release self-judgment and self-deprecation and all of that. So where are some resources that people can turn to?
Speaker 1:I am developing what I was calling a support group until the last one just ended and I got some really useful feedback from the folks in the group that it wasn't exactly a support group. It was halfway between a support group and a course, because I was offering a structured six week thing but also with support-like tendencies, where there's room to talk and share your experiences and get support. So I just finished one six-week round and the waitlist is open for the next six-week course, slash support group, specifically designed for the monopoly dynamic. I also do individual and relationship coaching. I've been working on writing a book on this and it's been so painful for me personally I had to take a break from the book, but there is one book on this right now that is one person's experiences and it's for sale on Amazon. I think it's Monogamous in a Polyamorous World or something like that.
Speaker 2:We'll find that and we'll link that in the show notes, but there's not a lot out there.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, on it there's not a lot of support and I find, especially with monogamous people who are struggling with this, there's not a lot of room to talk to their monogamous friends about it, because they do get this kind of pushback of how could you even consider that, almost shaming them for allowing their partner or even considering that for their partner, whereas the polyamorous person generally there are lots of polyamorous communities. There's a lot of discussion around it. There is a poly mono Facebook group that people can look for with lots of supportive folks on it, with some people and it works great for them and some people really expressing the struggles of it.
Speaker 2:And it can also work great and be somewhat of a struggle as well. Absolutely, because, as we're growing, growth many times is not comfortable and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it, but it also doesn't mean that we should. We just got to go through it. But I think, regardless, there is a lot of opportunity for self-growth and self-understanding and self-compassion and self-love and all of that. But I do think it's important to, if you're in this dynamic, to go check out that Facebook group, because it's important to see dynamics and relationships that work, because too much it is highlighted the things that don't work and so then there just gets to be a slap on label of monopoly relationships don't work, polyamorous relationships don't work, there's lots of monogamous relationships that don't work. But I think it's important to seek out dynamics and stories from people where it does work, so we can start looking at why does it work, what about it works, and so we can bring some of those elements into our own lives. And so I'm going to post in the show notes how to get in contact with Eli and also more information about your course specifically, or your group or however you you're gonna structure it in the second round, so that they can connect with you and you are so open with your DMs and your emails.
Speaker 2:I remember I emailed you, I think a year and a half ago, and you responded and I was like, oh my God, eli Sheff responded to me. So you're so open and caring and you have such wisdom. I really encourage people to reach out to get support that you need If you are in a relationship where you both really care about each other and you want each other to thrive and bloom. But this is the sticking point. There is a way through it with guidance, eli. Is there anything else that we missed or you want to talk about?
Speaker 1:I would say that sometimes they can't work. Sometimes there is no way. If you have someone who is wired for monogamy and somebody else who is wired for polyamory and they're both really far over on that scale, it's like trying to have a relationship between a gay man and a lesbian. They might be great friends, but they're not a good fit as romantic partners because what they want is diametrically opposed. And in those cases I would say it's so important to remember no one is doing it to the other person. You're not becoming polyamorous and aiming it intentionally at the other person. You're not polyamorying your monogamous partner. You are polyamorous yourself and that's okay. Or that other person is monogamous themselves and they're not doing it to you to mess you up.
Speaker 1:It could be possible that there is no blame to be had, that no one is at fault and maybe the relationship has run its course. Or you weren't a good fit from the beginning and you got some good things out of it. Or even with that mismatch, it's better to remain in long-term discomfort with each other than the long-term discomfort that comes from breaking up. Either way is going to be uncomfortable. Which one is promising to be more comfortable over time?
Speaker 1:And I would say with polyamory, the first year is often the hardest for people to figure out how they fit together and how all the moving pieces. Once you figure out that kind of dynamic of how do we do this and and you realized, okay, you went out with somebody and it was shitty for me, but I lived through it and next time I might do this instead, you can develop tolerance, it can become more bearable. You can renegotiate as you go. So the things that are not becoming bearable, you work on those and you emphasize the parts that are working, and sometimes it works for a time and then stops. Monogamous relationships do that too.
Speaker 2:Correct exactly, which is important. Just to note that this happens in all relationship styles. There is sometimes a natural evolution, a natural beginning, middle and end of relationships, and I don't look at that as failure in relationships. I look at that. As I grew, I learned and wow, what a journey I've been on.
Speaker 2:But I'm a different person because I've grown and learned and I'm dedicated to self-growth and that's going to help me in my next relationships, and so I'm glad you brought-growth and that's going to help me in my next relationships, and so I'm glad you brought that up, because it is true, there are some times that it just doesn't work and there is a grieving process in that and accepting that it's not easy for the faint at heart takes a lot of courage to go through it, but again, finding the support, I think, especially with someone like you, eli, who has a lot of experience, looking at a wide range of experiences, because when we're in our own little world, we think I'm the only one that's going through this, I'm the only one that's ever experienced this, and it's helpful to have someone say no, like this has happened before, and this is what I've seen and these are your choices and let's try to see where we want to go with it, and having that guidance can be really, really helpful to make the best choices.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and not feel so alone. I think especially the monogamous people and especially if they're liberal, because there's a lot of messaging in the liberal sphere right now around how everyone is naturally polyamorous and that, if you're not, then you must be malfunctioning. So the monogamous person is sometimes getting it from both sides the kind of conventional society saying, well, of course, polyamory doesn't work, that's outlandish. And the polyamory side saying everyone is polyamorous and if you're not doing it, then what's wrong with you? Right?
Speaker 1:You're less evolved, Exactly so wow, that sucks for the monogamous person to hear that.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Very delegitimating.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. That's a really interesting perspective that the monogamous person is getting it from both sides. So I hope you continue that support group, because I don't know of a lot of support groups for the monopoly dynamic and I'm sure being able to talk about it with other people and hearing other people's stories will really help to release shame and to give ideas but also really just find connection for other people who are going through what you're going through and I know when you're looking at something that is maybe not traditional, having someone say I understand what you're going through I may not understand it specifically, but I'm there with you and I'm experiencing similar things can be really healing in and of itself.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Oh, eli, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom. You have so many resources. You've written so many books. You have so many courses you support and you're a speaker and you do expert witnessing. You have so many amazing parts of the work that you do and the work that you put in the world. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us and I'm gonna have all your links in the show notes. Everyone, please go reach out to Eli and Eli. Thank you again. Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast.
Speaker 2:Wanna learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel, where I'll give you even more free resources and information, all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes. Stay curious. Every relationship is as unique as you are.
