The Intersectionality of Race and Non-Monogamy with Dr. Christopher Smith

Episode 099:
The Intersectionality of Race and Non-Monogamy with Dr. Christopher Smith

This episode of the Relationship Diversity Podcast features a deep dive into the intersectionality of race and ethical non-monogamy with Dr. Christopher Smith. 

Dr. Smith, an equity advisor, and diversity expert, shares their journey and insights into supporting underrepresented relationship communities. The conversation covers the challenges African American non-monogamous individuals face, including racial, economic, and intergroup discrimination, as well as phobias around sexuality and gender identity. 

They emphasize the importance of being an ally and advocate for marginalized communities by being a disruptor in societal norms and legal systems. They highlight their academic studies on the lived experiences of consensual, non-monogamous African American college students and discuss future research and advocacy plans. 

We also touch on the history of non-monogamous structures, the impact of religious and societal programming, and the need for more inclusive support systems in academia, local and federal governments, and beyond.

Connect with Chris:
Instagram | Twitter
Email:  tenabilitymovement@gmail.com
Advocacy and Support:
APA Division 44 Consensual Non-monogamy Task Force
Chosen Family Law Center

00:00 Exploring the Intersection of Race and Non-Monogamy

01:27 Diving Deep with Dr. Christopher Smith: Race, Non-Monogamy, and Advocacy

04:55 Dr. Smith's Personal Journey into Non-Monogamy

09:26 The Historical Context of Monogamy and Non-Monogamy

18:29 The Impact of Non-Monogamy on African American College Students

25:52 Advocacy and Future Directions in Non-Monogamy Research

33:17 Becoming an Ally and Advocate for Marginalized Communities

44:18 Final Thoughts and Resources

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intersection of Race and Non-Monogamy
• 16:06 Intersection of African-American Non-Monogamy
• 29:59 Supporting Non-Monogamous Communities and Advocacy
• 35:35 Supporting Relationship Diversity Through Education
• 45:01 Relationship Diversity Book Promotion

Transcript

Dr. Christopher Smith: 0:00

When you look at the intersection of race and non-monogamy, majority of the studies still are not representative of those populations. So anytime that a study comes out that is particular to a demographic, it really reveals what that demographic is dealing with. In the intersections, Like with African-Americans, we have to deal with the intersection of racial discrimination, economic discrimination, intergroup discrimination, particularly in certain areas of the country, heavy phobias around sexuality and gender identity, and a misunderstanding of the difference between sex and gender which causes people to be pushed out of families.

Carrie Jeroslow: 0:39

Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Keri Jaroslow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Intimate relationships can become.

Carrie Jeroslow: 1:27

Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation. Today I'm talking with Dr Christopher Smith about their studies with the intersectionality between ethical non-monogamy and race, the history of non-monogamous structures in the world, as well as what you can do to become an ally and advocate for these marginalized communities. But first a little about them. Dr Christopher N Smith is an equity advisor for the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Resilience Office, where Chris co-chairs the Pride, lgbtqia Plus Employee Resource Group, contracts as a diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and accessibility expert and serves as a security forces officer in the District of Columbia Air National Guard. Currently, dr Smith serves as adjunct faculty for South University, where Dr Smith teaches diversity, equity and inclusion, and general studies. Dr Smith earned their PhD through the Higher Education Leadership and Policy Studies Program at Howard University, focusing their studies on the lived experiences of consensual non-monogamous African American college students. Dr Smith has dedicated their life to supporting underrepresented relationship communities in every area of society.

Carrie Jeroslow: 3:07

Let's get into this amazing conversation. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I am super excited about my guest Today. I have Dr Christopher Smith here, and they are an expert on polyamory and race, specifically the African-American experience in consensual non-monogamy, and I think this is such an important topic and one I have wanted to talk about for a very long time, because I think that when you begin to learn and understand other people's experiences, especially when they differ from your own, this is how we bring more inclusivity and acceptance and make real change in the world. So with that, chris, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 4:06

Of course, it's an absolute pleasure. It's my favorite subject to talk about.

Carrie Jeroslow: 4:11

Well, I am excited to learn from you because I don't have experience in this area, and it is very important. I feel that I am an ally for all different diversity, and yet I still have a lot of learning to do. So thank you for being here and having this conversation, and I'd love to start with learning a little bit about you, learning about who you are and why you've decided to dedicate your life to supporting and educating about non-monogamy and the intersectionality between race and relationship diversity.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 4:55

All right. Well, a little bit about me. I am an American born. My distant family, passed due to American slavery, comes from Cameroon and Ghana, lived in pretty much everywhere around the United States. I've made it a point to at least travel to see every major city in the United States. I'm missing one, I believe.

Carrie Jeroslow: 5:19

Oh, which one is that?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 5:20

Anchorage. I'm missing Alaska pretty much.

Carrie Jeroslow: 5:22

Okay.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 5:24

But I've been to almost all the territories and the like and this subject became a particular point of interest for me because when I was younger, my sister came out as a lesbian and it destroyed my family. My family was a very conservative Christian family. My parents actually grew up in what the federal government considered a cult, so they were very steeped into conservatism, creativity, abstinence, chastity, not cussing, not drinking, not smoking, not doing anything that a lot of people consider fun, including myself, and so when my family broke, it put me in a tizzy of myself also being queer and also being non-binary. But when I looked at relationships across the spectrum, I found that a lot of people, because of social norms and religious affiliation, as well as his personal preference and sometimes lack of education, did not consider options that would help them be fully embodied people. So when I stepped into the non-monogamous realm now 13 years ago, I was actually in divinity school studying to get a master's of religious studies, because at that time I was an ordained pastor and I noticed that as I studied the history of different cultures and religions that non-monogamy as a whole was something that was prevalent and mentioned way more often than monogamy was, particularly in historical texts. If you look at the cultures that support Hinduism particularly, that was huge. There and around the world there have been manifestations of non-monogamy in various ways that were the social norm and personally I was at first a zealous Christian but I could never really just get together with how I felt about how people should love and how families should operate.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 7:23

I never thought how or how many people and who people love should break apart family structures, and that was a deeply in-rooted thing because of my belief in one God. So because of my heavy belief in Christianity and more like liberation theology, which looks at Christ not as somebody who's come to place rules but to accept all, I did not see and understand why people allow things like who people are intimate with, who they choose to partner with, how many people they choose to partner with, and even those dynamics would split families because if we look at Christian texts across the realm, family and the maintenance of family and family structures is the most pivotal thing. So I couldn't really sit with it. So I jumped into non-monogamy because I knew that I had the ability to be in romantic relationship in various ways with multiple people, but I never knew there was an outlet and then Divinity School really opened my eyes. So I'm like wait a minute, I'm not crazy. People across history have been doing this. It's historical fact, oh let's go.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:30

I was like let's go.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 8:31

I'm going to figure this thing out, and that started the 13-year journey At the beginning. Just like a lot of us do, whenever we're beginning something, it's messy. It's often messy and even throughout, even to this day. Messy, it's often messy and even throughout, even to this day. Messiness happens because that comes with relationship, but I really learned how to deeply care for and love people without setting certain limitations on them and allowing them to just fully be who they want to be, according to where they are and what they want at the time, because it changes, and that became my full expression of love.

Carrie Jeroslow: 9:06

Wow, what a story, and I love what you say about that. I don't really feel religious myself. I feel more spiritual because I feel it is a very personal experience. Anything that is me and my relationship with anything bigger is very personal, and I also live in a place where Christianity is very ingrained and I see it pull apart families, just like you say, and it just doesn't make sense to me. I'm curious if you have the history of how monogamy got into Christianity, how those things got so entwined. Has it always been a tenet of Christianity and non-monogamy has been other religions? I just I don't know the history of that.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 9:58

So Christianity and relationship structure have such a history when Christianity spurred from Judaism, and even if we look in the Old Testament, we see King David and the like having multiple wives and multiple partners, or a hair or more so, for that instance, and we see other Christian figures that identify as Christians doing the same. But when it comes to relationship structure as a whole, the advent of monogamy really started with agricultural movements, after humans stopped moving from place to place and they become more settled, the advent of certain economic entities and the passing down of property. Because think about it, if you're a hunter-gatherer and you're just trying to survive and you're working the land or you just started working the land and stuff of that nature and you have to hunt and all of that, it doesn't make sense to try to limit how many kids with who you can have kids with, because you just need people. You need everybody to take care of each other because you are a community. But as we began to become a little bit more solidified in the way that we are now, those ideas begin to wane away. And also the idea of nuclear families and monogamous marriages is also very much so. Economic and social tenets to control population size and also to control populations as a whole. So when we often think about structures such as marriage, or even the idea of dating and the like, and it always seems mononormative, that's because they are ways in which to limit and control certain things so that you can maintain accountability for them. They weren't originally about love at all. It was strategic for what was being built. However, even in the instances of our evolution, non-monogamous relationship structures still exist and still exist today across the world.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 11:53

The most popular one that we know of, or that we always hear of, is patriarchal polygyny, and polygyny is where a male has multiple wives or multiple female partners and the wives or female partners cannot have other partners. It is very patriarchal, but it is the most prevalent one, and I just want to note that in the world of consensual non-monogamy, whether it be polygyny is when a male has multiple partners, or polyandry, when a female has multiple partners that are males or men identifying, and then with polyamory and all its manifestations. All of these things are important because, as long as they are consensual, the people that are acting in these relationships have a choice. Unfortunately, often, when we see it shown in culture, more than likely the female within a relationship or the woman in the relationship does not have societally supported choices or even have been conditioned by their families to see that they have a choice to go seek other relationships. So non-monogamy has always been there. It's just how societies view it and how they're trying to control their populations.

Carrie Jeroslow: 13:05

Well, that word control is. When I think about religion and specifically in where I am, control is the word that comes up. If I can control and keep you in a fear space, then I have more power over you. And bringing in consensual non-monogamy is that it is discussed amongst all people, and I don't think it's always in consensual non-monogamy that everyone's like yes, I agree with everyone, but you are in a place where you have choice and there's not power over Right. That's what we're talking about, and I think, with consensual non-monogamy Right, that's what we're talking about, and I think, with consensual non-monogamy, polyamory really having its moment right now and I'm hoping that this is a snowball is going to continue, but there's a lot of people who are?

Carrie Jeroslow: 14:08

going into it uneducated and in that old mental paradigm of I'm just going to do this because now I can screw around with lots of different people and I have a term now that I can point to it. That is not what we're talking about.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 14:13

Not at all. Not at all, and it comes with an extreme sense of accountability and that consensus. Like you said, it's choice. If you're in a relationship structure where you choose to give up your choice because you have that dynamic and that's what you want, cool, you made that choice, though it wasn't mandated on you. And, like you said, a lot of people jump into these situations still with certain normative ideologies around gender dynamics, around sexuality, around communication, around expectation of spending time around family, around finance, around kids and how things are supposed to be done. And consensual non-monogamy can be a very explorative space and it can expand us if we allow it to and if we do the work to.

Carrie Jeroslow: 15:03

Yes, do the work to. And even I'm four years into this chapter of mine and I'm still realizing, as I go deeper, the real programming, mononormative programming, that comes out in these little ways, seemingly little, but when I'm able to do that, my own work, and really question it, it's like mind blown, like oh my gosh, wow, that mononormative thought in terms of all that you talked about, in terms of finances, cohabitation, co-parenting, romantic, sexual, all of that. You really have to be willing to go in and ask the questions of yourself and be willing to shift that. And so I want to move towards your dissertation, because you have done a lot of research and you've also worked with participants to learn more about polyamory and race and what people's experiences are. So can you lead us through and talk us through some of your dissertation?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 16:05

Absolutely so. When it comes to the intersection of being African-American and consensual, non-monogamous, it is a very nuanced endeavor because being African-American comes with so many intersections. On its own, it comes with a particular history that is very different from people within the African diaspora that are not within a continental United States. You see similarities, of course, because of colonization and the like, and also a similar origin. However, it's very nuanced. So with African Americans, you have this ideal of being socially accepted and remaining ideals of being socially accepted and remaining ideals of respectability. In order to survive in a nation, you have to be better. In this type of way. You can't display this type of emotion. You can't do this, you can't do this and you're expected to do this. You're expected to be the sports player, all these things, particularly as a male. You're expected to be athletic. You're expected to have this swagger about you, you're expected to be cool no terminology, but that doesn't capture all of what being an African-American is, and all of that has limited very much so or even caused us to act in relationships in a certain way, like it's a compulsion. We have to do that in order to survive, pretty much.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 17:26

But when it comes to that intersection, when people step out into non-monogamy, it adds a layer of fighting those ideals of respectability. So even within our own inner group respectability because, I'm going to be honest with you, a lot of the backlash I get about being queer, about being non-binary, about being non-monogamous, does not come from other racial categories. Honestly, it comes from within my own group because it's seen as such a you're really doing that. Isn't that white people stuff? They can get and be free because we don't feel like we'll be protected.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 18:11

And there's an entire history behind that within America of when African-Americans do step out, whether it's been in education, health care, government or even social movements there are various levels of responsibility for us than there are for other groups within the United States. So this study looked at that intersection, particularly with college students, and it was very personal to me because when I really stepped into consensual non-monogamy I was a graduate student at a historically Black college that is very much so, founded in somewhat conservative beliefs. It's a lot better now, given the generations that have passed through and the changing of the guard when it comes to administration, but still needs a lot of improvement. Love you, howard, but still, if you want, to go to Howard University?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 19:01

you should, but it's you know so in the study, but it's, you know. So in the study. I did a phenomenological study, which is basically you sitting down and talking to people about their lived experiences and pulling themes from those lived experiences, and I ended up having 10 participants from across the country. Participants from across the country Majority did go to historically Black colleges and universities, but we had some go to predominantly white institutions or historically white institutions and also institutions that had a mixture of other demographics, like Hispanic serving institutions or Asian American and Native Indian, pacific Islander serving institutions. And all those designations are based off certain percentages that are provided by the government to provide schools certain funding to support those demographics.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 19:53

But the one thing that I have found across the board that was very interesting was that, regardless of the situations they were in, all of them spoke about living and experiencing the same things, like when it came to their interactions with faculty and staff.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 20:09

A lot of the faculty and staff one were completely ignorant to what consensual non-monogamy was and just mistook it for sexual liberation and just being freaky, which that's a part of it if that person desires that part to be a part of it.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 20:24

But it's not just that. So when students had some anxiety and stress about being open about who they were because they didn't want to be stereotyped by the faculty and staff. Also, there were instances where faculty and staff did know that they were non-monogamous and used that stigmatization and assumption just to label them as players or not knowing what they wanted and not really creating a safe environment for them to explore. And there were some instances where the students did have supportive staff and the support was like hey, we really don't know what it is and we'll learn about it to connect with you, but honestly, we just want you to be a successful student. So if you want to bring your two partners to this event, we'll make sure you have two tickets and we'll make sure we acknowledge that. And if you come from a multi parent household, we'll acknowledge that too and we'll make sure everybody gets the communication. But the overarching experience was one of anxiety and stress and stigmatization due to the faculty's ignorance and assumption making.

Carrie Jeroslow: 21:30

Wow, and all of your participants were African-American.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 21:34

Absolutely.

Carrie Jeroslow: 21:35

Yeah, and I'm curious if pulling the non-monogamous part out of it, if there are still those stigmatizations and the assumptions that they have. I'm thinking that when you talk about within your own race and the expectations, because I grew up Jewish and there's a lot of expectations that we have within how we represent ourselves. I don't really again consider myself very religious, but it is conversations that we have and then even as an American, going to a foreign country and saying like we are a representation of this group of people and we want to come off being a certain way.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 22:17

This is where I like to point out in these conversations because a lot of times when we get to the disaggregation of experience and breaking it down by certain cultures and race aggregation of experience and breaking it down by certain cultures and race we forget that within America, even those that don't fit a certain racial category, if they have historically been a minority or come from a history that is filled with trauma, they experience many of the similar things and act very similarly, with just different now privileges than other groups would have. So it's a very important point to draw that across the board. When it comes to non-monogamy, everybody's experiencing stigmatization in different ways. Right, and it all shows itself and you even see that with the participants of my studies, interactions within their campuses with other students when they were trying to matriculate or still in the midst of matriculating. One the same thing with the faculty when they tried to date or build friendship groups. They dealt with the same stigmatization, discrimination, assumption-making. Some students even had their peers and their friends attempt to subvert their relationships and cause drama within their relationships. They would ostracize them outside of certain community groups or student groups. They would label them as somebody to keep their significant partners from because they are living a non-monogamous lifestyle, thinking that, oh, because they're non-monogamous, that means they're going to try to get with their significant partner, which is not true at all, particularly if they're doing it consensually and ethically. I would be more about the person who's in the monogamous relationship that really doesn't want to be in it and will just sneak behind your back. Nothing against monogamous people, but if you're bound by a certain thing, doing things openly and ethically really isn't an option and it forces people into this tunnel of dishonesty, deceit and ultimately hurting people.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 24:13

So these students dealt with the stress of that. Some of them. They had to be so careful. A lot of them spoke about how they'd be so careful about building friend groups because of that. So they had to be very intentional about who they allowed into their personal circles, because some of them talked about how they used to have friends that were in there and then they didn't and they would talk behind their backs and do all of these things. And the universities themselves didn't have any structures to support. There were no student life groups and the mental health and physical health services weren't informed enough. One individual went to do a checklist at a health service, for a university provided health service and they saw how normative it was and how it really didn't speak to their situation. And even when they spoke to the health professional about having multiple partners, the health professional just wrote it off. It was like, oh, you're just being a freak. And they really didn't get to talk about their lived experiences with this individual. So therefore, the services really don't meet the needs.

Carrie Jeroslow: 25:13

Right, wow, there's so much there, and I think, when you feel like you're stigmatized or you're marginalized, and then you add just other things on top of it, it can be very traumatizing, very isolating. And so, with all of this that you gained all of this information from your dissertation, how are you using it to make changes? Because I know that you are committed to making changes and to being the voice for these marginalized communities. So how are some of the ways that the dissertation is helping you to make changes?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 25:53

Oh, so for me I would say it's threefold Within academia, within local and state governments. Well, let's go fourfold local and state governments within our national constructs and then internationally, and they're all intersecting. Within academia, there are very few African-American researchers that are published and out there about it and shouts out to Dr Justin Clardy and Kevin Patterson and a few others that have put out works and all those that are coming in behind us. Let's do this, so we're needed and there's so much more, so many more people coming. I can't wait till they step forward and get their shine.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 26:34

But within academia, particularly when you look at the intersection of race and non-monogamy, majority of the studies still are not representative of those populations. So anytime that a study comes out that is particular to a demographic, it really reveals what that demographic is dealing with. In the intersections, like with African Americans, we have to deal with the intersection of racial discrimination, economic discrimination, intergroup discrimination heavy, particularly in certain areas of the country, heavy phobias around sexuality and gender identity and a misunderstanding of the difference between sex and gender, which causes people to be pushed out of families. Also, another point does it make sense? Because if you know, you're an economically disadvantaged community and that family is one of the major points of wealth building. Why would you kick somebody out of your family to put them in a situation where they may not have the resources, the education or the know-how to build wealth, therefore just continuing the issue even more.

Carrie Jeroslow: 27:39

Right Generational trauma. And so why do you think that is? I have my thoughts on it, but why does that happen?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 27:47

I mean it's really because I'm a person that's a mixture of ignorance to the impact of it. I remember I sat down and had a conversation with some family members a couple of years ago about that very thing and I was like, if you cut off that family member, right, you are literally starting them with no resource, all over again and perpetuating this system. There is a study that came out and showed that, particularly for African-American males, we are you more than likely one generation away from poverty.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 28:21

Right literally one generation away from poverty. So if you have that one generation that got out of poverty but because of religious affiliation, conservatism, ignorance or whatever, bias or just downright hate pushes another person out, denies them the resources that they built and you're setting us back, it just makes no sense in the bigger scheme of things, mm-hmm, it just makes no sense in the bigger scheme of things and people really just aren't taught in our society how to deal with diversity and difference in a healthy way.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 28:53

Definitely, and that's across the board. Conservative areas around the world, around the nation, where particularly transgender individuals are catching a lot of heat for being so and being killed continuously, trans women that are African-American or BIPOC as a whole, how the highest number of violence, murders being burned alive, beat to death across the nation. So it's. And then imagine being non-monogamous at the same time and navigating the expectations of your gender identity with being non-monogamous when you're trying to build a relationship with people. It's, it's expansive.

Carrie Jeroslow: 29:41

Yeah, oh, my gosh yeah. And it feels almost like insurmountable at times, which is why I super appreciate all of your work. And so you talked about academia. So how are other ways in those other areas that you were talking about?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 29:59

So, when it comes to state, local governments, there are organizations such as OPEN Chosen Family Law Center and the American Psychological Association Committee on Consensual Non-Monogamy that are pushing for the destigmatization and the support of non-monogamous communities or multifamily communities or non-nuclear family iterations in law and also in services. So just recently in Oakland, in April, the anti-discrimination clauses were passed, and it's the first, I know right. It's amazing, it's the first major city to do so and that anti-discrimination goes into things like property, custody of children, housing all of that to make sure that, simply because you're in a quad or you have multiple partners, you are not denied access to certain resources unjustly because there's really no reason outside of control and the people who want to do it. Because control, I get it. However, if you look at the history of most civilizations, I would dare say all the more you try to control and not adjust, you fall quicker, yeah.

Carrie Jeroslow: 31:10

Revolution. It's happening right now, look at all the campuses. This is happening again, and history shows that this is cyclical and so there's got to be another way, right?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 31:21

Yeah, so that's their federal government, or bigger nationally. It's going to be the same push Once we get more and more localities and states to pass laws and the movement gets bigger, sooner or later the federal government I know there's already hints of it within the federal government working for it, of these things coming about because it intersects with religious accommodation of observance. There are religions that believe that people can be in multi-person marriages and they aren't given the same rights unless they know legally how to get around that by having wills in place. Even some people build LLCs and have everything that they own put under that LLC and they're all owners of that LLC, so if something happens, they can have access to the resources that they need. However, majority of minority communities don't have access to that. It may come before Congress or the Supreme Court and be like, hey, no, we need to find ways to support multi-parent, multi-adult or non-nuclear families better and make it a protected status and then see where it goes from there.

Carrie Jeroslow: 32:42

I hope less than 20 years, 30 years, but the next few years will be very telling, I think. So I want to know, because these are such like, as we said, they're just such huge systems to be breaking down. And let's say, someone's listening somewhere in the world or in the United States and they're saying okay, I'm a white, cisgendered American and I want to be an ally and an advocate. So what would you say to someone who is wanting to show up for non-monogamous communities, african American communities, any kind of cultural diversity, relationship diversity how can someone be an advocate and an ally?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 33:37

Be a disruptor. There are a lot of times when we think about allyship. It's very passive, like hey, I support you but I'm not going to risk anything in the process. No, be a disruptor. Make sure that in your local communities, in voting and the like, that you're really paying attention to the issues that are impacting these communities. In your everyday conversations with your own end group that has the privilege, be the disruptor, say that no, we're not going to talk about people like this, we're not going to make these assumptions.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 34:06

Educate yourself on it. Don't expect to be educated on it. Actively seek to do it and when you see somebody who's in these communities being discriminated against, stand up for them in the way that they would like you to, but stand up for them and, most importantly, have conversations in these communities, with these communities, to know how to advocate for. And the biggest thing, it's not a we don't want to do a privileged savior thing, because that's trash. So if you're going to create an organization that supports these communities, make sure people from those communities are in deciding and power positions so that they can veto and push back things that aren't really helpful, because oftentimes we see well-meaning people make organizations and they miss the mark because people from those organizations don't have decision-making power or the power to say absolutely not, we're not doing that, I don't care how much y'all want to, it's not going to work and it misses the mark.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 35:07

And part of that is letting go or changing our ideology around our capitalist society and why it is important to do these things. Because a lot of us are very much so success, individualistic and money-driven and we're built that way. We're literally conditioned to be that way. But for fights like this, we can't do this individualistically. It has to be that way. But for fights like this, we can't do this individualistically. It has to be a community approach, it has to be.

Carrie Jeroslow: 35:34

I agree with you completely. And then also this thing about the people that this affects, getting them involved in asking questions, because I just can't even know what your experience is. I just can't even know it, and so education is super important. Where can people go? To websites, organizations, where they can learn more about what you're talking about?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 36:00

So, like I mentioned, open is a great platform. They're on Instagram as well as Twitter and they're actually particularly intersectional and they're a good example of what a community of people coming together, of various educational backgrounds, demographic backgrounds and the like, can do. Also, the APA Committee on Consensual Non-Monogamy is a good resource, but also look into your local communities and see what consensual, non-monogamous communities exist there and tap into them in a respectful way. Don't jump in and be like, hey, I want to help and try to take over. No, jump in and be like, hey, I want to learn. And where do you need me to help with the privilege that I may have? Because I know like for me, I am queer, non-binary and non-monogamous, but I know when people see me, they're like that is the straightest and most masculine person in the world, so on and so forth.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 36:55

So I use that to help people often and then, after I'm done helping, they're like why did you? I'm like, I'm one of you. They just don't know that. Like, they just don't know that Be connected with the communities. We're everywhere. We are literally everywhere, and if you know it's not a community, that you're in an area where it's safe for the community, don't out the community. Don't try to push them, if anything. If you know the community is not safe there, fight within the community itself to make it safe for them, so that they can live free, so that they can be out, so that they can be prosperous. And for my academians when you're doing research on a community, make sure you are studying the nuances of the community respectfully and letting the voices of the community guide your work and not your assumptions.

Carrie Jeroslow: 37:50

Ooh, that's a big one. So I'm thinking you have experience with that the way that you just said.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 37:56

Yes, there's some firsthand experience with that Firsthand experience, and it's often not intentional, but it's just one of those things where you're like, oh, I want to research this population. Well, are you connected into the population? And when you are connected into the population, how do you treat the population? Do you just see them as test subjects or do you see them as people that are actually experiencing a living life that need to be counted? And I could go deeper into what that means when it comes to quantitative data and how we measure it and the type of tests we use, but that's a different podcast.

Carrie Jeroslow: 38:34

I'll get all these educators because I've connected with a lot of researchers and I hear a lot about this and so maybe I'll have a podcast about researching in the non-monogamous field, because what I hear from some of my friends who are researchers is that anything that shows non-monogamy, consensual non-monogamy in a positive light is not funded. They have to really be very driven to get the information and do it all themselves. But there is plentiful funding for those who say non-monogamy doesn't work and all of the bad parts about that relationship structure. So what's coming for you, chris? Where do you see yourself going in your work?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 39:22

Well, for me, next steps continuing to advocate on all the levels that I spoke of.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 39:28

I'm going to work on more works with the intersections of the larger African-American community in polyamory and really do the first mass study.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 39:38

I want to get thousands of participants to really look at the conditions that African-Americans deal with while being consensually non-monogamous, according to region, according to religious affiliation, according to age and all those things do that intersection to give a more precise picture of what's going on in the diversity that is being African-American.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 39:59

Also, in this space, in my creating curriculum and developing curriculum in multiple spheres around this subject to aid people and even to inform people, there's this great organization called the Institute for Diversity and Equity in Emergency Management that I'm going to jump on with to be a curriculum developer when it comes to considering non-nuclear families or non-traditional family structures in emergency management, because that needs to be cleared up and provided, and just by my, all I can say is like my ultimate goal is to let the voices of the underrepresented be known and in any way that I can do that, I absolutely want to and I would love to do studies that cross-compare demographic groups in this to see what the experiences are, find the commonalities, find the differences, because I honestly am a believer that we, as humans, we are more alike than we are different, definitely.

Carrie Jeroslow: 41:01

Wow, big things and I would love to support you in your work. I think it's so important and if people are feeling like they wanna connect with you in some way and support your work in whatever way they can, is there a way that people can connect with you? Are you on any social media or email or website?

Dr. Christopher Smith: 41:24

So I would say, the best ways to connect with me? Instagram, definitely. My Instagram is polyhd, so that's P-O-L-Y-H, period D, like PhD but polyhd.

Carrie Jeroslow: 41:37

Oh nice.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 41:39

And then you can also connect with me on Twitter, and my older millennial self have to get used to using Twitter. But there it's at Smith Chris N on Twitter. That's at Smith Chris N, and if you want to email me, it would be tenabilitymovement at gmailcom.

Carrie Jeroslow: 42:00

Okay, awesome. I will put all of that in the show notes and anything else that you're feeling like you really want to get out there that we haven't touched on.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 42:10

Absolutely, and this is more so for people who are in polyamory or thinking about living it and adopting it as a relationship structure, and also for those who feel like this is how they've been born, because I do believe that there are people that are just hey, you pop out the womb. You're like I love multiple partners. Do not be afraid to make mistakes, even though it may seem like because you are in a structure that is not supported by most social institutions or norms. They get to make mistakes all the time and it's okay. It's just seeing this part of the blueprint, and it is for us, too. Making mistakes is part of the blueprint of building anything you can afford therapy. Go to therapy. Go to therapy and work through those things that you need to work through and, lastly, when you walk into this thing, be willing to be hurt. Wow.

Carrie Jeroslow: 43:13

Yeah, that's a big one.

Dr. Christopher Smith: 43:15

Because it's going to happen. Khalil Gibran wrote the book, or the second set of short pieces called the Prophet, and one of them talked about love and say if you're only looking for the sweet, soft parts of love and you're avoiding the hardness and the pain, then may you never receive it.

Carrie Jeroslow: 43:35

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, that's really big and it brings me to tears because it is. It is Love, is all of it, it's all of it and that's such great words of advice to leave us with. Chris, thank you for being a voice for all of the marginalized communities. I am so thankful for you to be able to have the courage and the drive to speak out. Thank you for that the courage and the drive to speak out. Thank you for that. Please, everyone, go and support Chris and all of this amazing work that I know you will accomplish. So, thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast.

Carrie Jeroslow: 44:22

Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.

Carrie Jeroslow: 45:01

New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel where I'll give you even more free resources and information all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes.

Carrie Jeroslow: 45:23

Stay curious. Every relationship is as unique as you are. Are you wondering why you never seem to find lasting fulfillment in your relationships, or do you create the same kinds of relationship experiences over and over again? Can you never seem to find even one person who you want to explore a relationship with? Have you just given up hope altogether? If this sounds like you, my recent book why Do they Always Break Up With Me is the perfect place to start. The foundation of any relationship, whether intimate or not, is the relationship we have with ourselves. In the book, I lead you through eight clear steps to start or continue your self-exploration journey. You'll learn about the importance of self-acceptance, gratitude, belief, shifting and forgiveness, and given exercises to experience these life-changing concepts. This is the process I use to shift my relationships from continual heartbreak to what they are now fulfilling, soul-nourishing, compassionate and loving. It is possible for you. This book can set you on a path to get there. Currently available through Amazon or through the link in the show notes.