Relationship Diversity Podcast
Every relationship is as unique as you are. Relationship Diversity Podcast aims to celebrate, question, and explore all aspects of relationships and relationship structure diversity. Together, we’ll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships. We’ll ask challenging and transformational questions, like: Who am I? What do I really want in my relationships? Am I in this relationship structure because it’s all I know or is it really the fullest expression of who I am? Being curious, having courage to look within, and asking these important questions creates the space for joy-filled, soul-nourishing relationships. Your host and guide, Carrie Jeroslow is an International Best-Selling Author, Conscious Relationship Coach, and Intuitive. Through this podcast, she helps to normalize discussions about all different kinds of relationship structures from soloamory to monogamy to polyamory, and everything in between. This is a space of inclusivity and acceptance. The time is NOW to shift the conversation to a new paradigm of conscious, intentional, and diverse relationships.Join in as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become.
Relationship Diversity Podcast
The Metamorphosis of Intimate Relationships For New and Seasoned Parents with Markella Kaplani
Episode 091:
The Metamorphosis of Intimate Relationships For New and Seasoned Parents with Markella Kaplani
Have you ever wondered how the rollercoaster of parenthood can redefine who we are and the fabric of our closest relationships? In a heart-to-heart with the Parenting and Relationship Counselor, Markella Kaplani, we peel back the layers of emotions and psychological adjustments that come with the passage into parenthood.
Markella, with her dual expertise in couples counseling and child psychology, offers profound insights into the transformation known as 'matrescence' and its ripple effects within the family unit.
Parenting is no small feat, and this episode brings to light the stark contrast between societal narratives and the real, lived experiences of new parents. From identity loss to the myth of maternal fulfillment, we tackle the hard truths about the expectations placed on parents and the need for authentic support systems.
Communication, a cornerstone of any healthy relationship, comes under the microscope as we dissect the challenges faced by parenting partners. We confront the shame and guilt that can plague mothers, preventing them from seeking much-needed help, and the emotional disconnect fathers might experience without shared parenting moments. The conversation culminates with strategies to foster effective communication and understanding between partners, how narrationo can transform conflict into connection.
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The same thing that we were saying of how the parent is changing and shifting and needs to accept that it's not going back to normal, it's creating a new normal that could even be so much better if we accept the process and we allow a little bit more flow. Then it's the same exact thing when it comes into the couple as well, accepting that we both have changed and that this is not a bad thing. So whenever a couple will come in, they'll say she's changed, he's changed what's happening, and they say it with such a negative connotation. But this change doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Carrie Jeroslow:Welcome to the Relationship Diversity podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from solaramary to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, keri Jarislow. Bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our Conversation Series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow:Today I'm talking with Markella Kaplani about the emotional and psychological transition of parenthood and how it shifts the identity of the parents as well as the identity of the partnership as a whole. But first a little about her. Markella Kaplani offers guidance to parents and couples navigating the ever-changing landscape of parenthood and relationship dynamics. Markella is not just a seasoned psychologist, but also a dedicated parenthood and relationship coach. She is known for her insightful approach to the shifts in identity that come with parenthood and how this affects how a person relates to themselves, their partner or partners, as well as to their children. Holding advanced certifications in couples counseling, child psychology and what is called metrescence, or the rite of passage into and throughout motherhood, markella brings a rich combination of knowledge into her practice, being able to view multiple facets of the human experience. Markella is devoted to validating and normalizing the rollercoaster of emotions involved in parenthood by helping parents and couples get to self-awareness and self-compassion through her social media, her blog, her intimate newsletter and, soon enough, I'm told, her very own podcast. On a more personal level, markella is a mother of one, married to a man whom she's been with for 17 years, and a restless soul who had to reconcile her own multi-passionate nature with the demands of parenthood.
Carrie Jeroslow:Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I am so excited about this topic that we're going to talk about. I've got an incredible guest with me today. I've got Markella Kaplani here and we are going to talk about the shifts in identity that comes with parenthood and how it will affect your relationship with yourself, with your partner or partners, and really your relationship with the world. And this is information I wish I had as I was going into parenthood, because I really got blindsided by this new relationship dynamic that I had with myself, with my child and with my partner, and I really wish that I had a Markella in my life at that time to help me through this. So we're going to talk all about this, markella. Thank you so much for being here and welcome.
Markella Kaplani:Thank you for inviting me. It's my pleasure to be here.
Carrie Jeroslow:You have a wealth of information in this area. We'll get to all of that. I'd love to start with your story and how you got to doing the work that you did, because I always feel like there is a story with our passions. We come into our passions many times from experience.
Markella Kaplani:Yes, it is very true. So it's partly because of work experience, and then it has a lot to do with what I experienced as a parent myself, and, even though I'm going to backtrack in a little bit, it's important to say that this is coming from a person who had been working with parents in the past, and I've been working with children as well, and so it's not like I went into parenthood completely oblivious, not like anybody really goes completely oblivious. We've got friends and people who we know and they talk about things or we see them in parenthood. So we know, now at least, that it's not going to be that easy, but you never really know. However, being in this profession, it's not like I thought oh yeah, I'm going to do it better because I know stuff and I guide parents. I never entered with that attitude. However, I was shocked at how much it slapped me in the face.
Markella Kaplani:There was a very big identity shift, which I realized later. So I'm using this vocabulary now, but back then it was what's happening to me? Who am I? Am I having some kind of identity crisis? Where is the old me? Will I ever be the old me again? And there is this social expectation that motherhood will come in and it will fulfill you. It's not the same with fathers. With mothers, we are marketed this that motherhood is going to come in and fulfill you.
Markella Kaplani:So, me being a very multi-passionate person, I like to do lots of hobbies and aside from work I used to do so many things and I was kind of like, oh yeah, but when a baby comes it takes up a lot of time, so I'm going to have to drop these things. And my husband was even asking how is that going to really work for you? Because you don't sit still for a second. And I never said it out loud, but I think there was this subconscious thought that I'm going to be okay because I'm going to have my baby and I'm not going to need that anymore and it's going to be fine. And by the time that I feel like I might need it, he will be at a place where I will be able to go into it. By six months I had gone stir crazy. I started a new blog with him on my shoulder Because I had to do something. I couldn't do my jewelry because of the beads and all that stuff. You don't want to have that around babies, but I had to do something.
Markella Kaplani:So, going back to how it all started, I am a psychologist, but I also became a special educator, so I used to work at a school with children with learning differences and with their parents. Later on, I worked even more within my private practice with parents in helping their children, because I noticed that whatever work I was doing with children, either in the academic or the counseling setting because I was also seeing kids in the counseling setting wasn't really doing much if the parents weren't getting the support that they needed. And so, even though I loved working with children at some point especially the child counseling part started feeling like I can't go anywhere unless the parents are doing the work, and it takes too much energy out of me to try to convince them to stay consistent with another professional to do the work. So I felt more called to be working with the parents as a way of supporting the child. And as I got into that, I started seeing how a lot of professionals treat parents in this area where it's your fault.
Markella Kaplani:So, even though I'm saying right now that, yes, I want to work with the parents because that will actually help the child more, it's as if I'm saying it's your fault. However, it's not that. It's actually. You need the support. You haven't gotten enough support, and if you don't have support and if you're not emotionally well, then how are you supposed to show up as the version that everybody expects you to be, the version that you want to be to your children? And so I came from a place of how can we really provide parents with what they need before we tell them what to do? Because a lot of times it's just like do this and do that, and there's this hack and you haven't been doing this well, and, oh my God, you shot it at your kid. Yeah, you know she shouted or he shouted, but why? Why did they shout? If you don't look at the background, it's going to happen again. Just because I'm telling you not to shout. It's not just going to magically say oh yeah, you know, you were waiting for me to tell you, yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:Parenting advice used to actually make me really angry because I felt so inadequate as a mother. I talk about this a lot I had. My first son was born via emergency C-section after probably 50-some hours of natural labor, and every plan that I had was thrown by the wayside and I was. My experience as a mother from the beginning was completely different, and every time I would read certain kind of advice, I would just end up feeling inadequate and that I wasn't a good mother, although I felt like I needed support, which I didn't necessarily feel like I got support in acknowledging what I was going through, just acknowledging and having it be okay that I was struggling as a young mother, and I felt like for me, that time was very lonely. I was the only one up with my child at 4 am trying to get this child to go back to sleep, or absolutely exhausted, and so I can only imagine that that support that you give it is a very different. Support and advice are two very different things.
Markella Kaplani:Yes, it is. It's very different. So I started working with parents and I had that kind of a mentality, but then I was still split between the educational component of the students that I had At some point as I became a mother and I noticed how intensely it feels. So I could tell that there was more need for support. But then I started delving into the area of why am I feeling this way? What is happening? I wanted this child because it is the case that maybe you get pregnant, you decide to keep it, but you didn't really want it, but I really wanted this to happen. So what's happening? Why am I feeling this, disillusioned by all of it? Why am I struggling?
Markella Kaplani:What you said is spot on. It's the validation. You don't really get validated.
Markella Kaplani:We don't hear this enough that you may want to be a mother, you may adore your child, but at the same time you may be grieving for the old self that deep inside was not coming back. You cannot turn back to normal, get your body back to normal and get your life back to normal and life and work, balance and all these things. You may insinuate that things are just going to go back to how they were, but there is a normal. It's just a new normal. Yeah, you won't be like that all the time. I'm not saying that, oh my God, you're feeling this way. Oh, you're stuck there. By the way, no, that's not what I'm saying. But if there's this expectation that we're supposed to go back to exactly who we were and how we lived before, most of us are in for a rude awakening and then we keep on fighting the process, and that will keep us stuck in a place of disillusionment for way longer. So that's why it's important to talk about this identity shift.
Carrie Jeroslow:I think that that was actually the thing that helped me move forward was, instead of wanting to go back to who I was before, that I said there is no going back. I'm a mother, I am a mother and my identity has shifted in coming into this new awareness of who am I now. I didn't get there until my youngest was in kindergarten, so it was quite a long time where I realized I had totally lost myself. I did not know who I was and I was an older mom. I had spent many, many years, up until my late 30s, getting to know who I was. So to be in this place where the realization was I don't know who I am, I have no identity. Then starting to rebuild from there.
Carrie Jeroslow:I can imagine how helpful you are with people in the beginning to say there is going to be an identity shift and to almost go on that journey with them earlier than five or six or seven years into their parenting journey. I'm curious how did your experience having your child? How was it different? So you thought it was going to be a certain way and yet it was different, which is what you said. But I'm curious if you could get a little bit more specific about what you thought it was going to be like and what it was actually like.
Markella Kaplani:I guess what I thought it would be like, even though I didn't realize that. I was very much affected by what you see on Instagram and all these nice pictures and the videos and the movies where you take the baby out and you sit at a cafe with friends and you still get to have a normal chat while the baby is asleep. I thought that I could leave him on the pram or somewhere in the day and he can play with the toys that are hanging above him and I can also do something in the house and not have to do it frantically at a time when someone else is there to support me. I believed that I would have a baby that would cry less. It's not all babies are like this.
Markella Kaplani:He did have, unfortunately, a very difficult start in life. He had a colic that was very intense. After the fact, when he was finally done with the colic, the pediatrician explained to me that there are stages of colic and he had the top level of it. She had met another one case that was this difficult, but she told me after the fact, to which I said I would have appreciated to know sooner. She said you were dealing with it so fine, considering that I didn't want to tell you that it's that bad, in case I would make it worse. I was like no, it was way worse, because I would hear other mothers say, yeah, my son or my daughter has colic and they were dealing with it so much better than me and it was so hard not to make the comparison because I was like, why am I drowning? I felt like I was drowning. My son wouldn't leave my shoulder literally Other kids maybe they don't really like to sit on the pram, but they will leave your shoulder a little bit, even when they're newborns. They will sit on the floor. The tummy time and all that stuff will last a little longer. They'll be able to do things like that.
Markella Kaplani:My son couldn't do it because, right after three months, a very intense colic where he was crying all day but then would screech between the hours of seven to 10. And most of that time I was alone. I didn't have support because my husband was working. Then came, after the three months, acid reflux and so he had to be standing, Otherwise things kept coming up and that lasted up until his eight months, where I couldn't even go on a walk with him because I couldn't put him in a stroller because even at the highest position he would get queasy and start crying within five minutes. And let's put that into the mix where by the time his colic ended and he may have been he was a little bit easier to deal with.
Markella Kaplani:That's when quarantine hit because of COVID, and so then I was stuck in the house up until about eight months and then quarantine started ending and thankfully his acid reflux started ending and finally there came a time where I could go out in the stroller, but that also it was very lonely for me. I guess that's one of the things I didn't expect so much A because, being childless, I was very there for my friends when they had kids, but I didn't get the same reaction. A lot of it had to do with the quarantine and even if they wanted to come, I didn't want them to come with all of what was going on with COVID right. So I was very isolated and then, even when we were out, because he had to just be moving the entire time, I hardly had human connection for a very long while.
Carrie Jeroslow:I hear a lot of mothers talk about this isolation and it's a painful isolation, not only from being alone, but from the nonstop attention, especially that a baby with colic and acid reflux needs. I had a very spirited young boy, who is now a very spirited young man, and he was up all the time. He never slept, he never napped and I almost felt like I was being tortured with lack of sleep and it affected everything. It really affected my relationship with my husband. How did this beginning part these eight months, specifically, how did that affect your relationship with your husband?
Markella Kaplani:It affected it for sure Because, like you're saying, I kind of chuckled when you said about the sleep, because I didn't sleep for about two years and a lot of moms will say I didn't sleep. But it's really relative to what each of us means. A lot of mothers will say, and I'm glad I mean, like it's relative right, so everybody's experience and it must hurt just as much, but you get used to what is happening in your life. For me, I didn't sleep meant he would wake up every hour, but that waking up wasn't a 15 minute wake up thing. He needed to be on me for at least an hour and a half so that he would fall deeply asleep and I could lay him down so that he would sleep about half an hour to an hour and then again another hour and a half where I'm sitting in the dark with him on my shoulder. For another hour and a half I would sleep, and not consecutively, obviously, just as a sum I would sleep four hours. When I'd sleep as a sum, five hours, I would feel blessed.
Markella Kaplani:And so it really affected every area of my life, including the relationship for sure, because on the one hand, I was breastfeeding and so he needed me. He wanted me. He wanted nothing to do with my husband, especially at night. And that carried on even later. My son just connected nighttime, waking with me. He wouldn't accept my husband to step in the room. He would cry even harder. But then it became a phase where I was so tired that I was expecting things that I needed support from, but then at the same time I rationally hold it onto them. So to make that more specific is kind of like I wanted my husband to take more charge and take my son, regardless of whether he was crying or not, so that they could bond and I could have a little bit of a breathing space. But at the same time I would hear my son crying for more than two minutes and my heart would start racing and I'd take him from him. And so there was this whole thing. Like you want me to help but you're not letting me help, and I'm saying but if you wanted to help, you would help.
Markella Kaplani:Sitting back and looking at it now, I didn't allow much space for the support to come in. It needed to come in with some idealized version of how it was going to be. I didn't give room, but at the same time I felt resentment of why isn't it happening, and part of it was because of the mother instinct when a baby cries, but a big part of it is because I'm grieving my old self. So I'm struggling with that identity shift. I am living Groundhog Day. Every day is the same thing, I can't do anything, I'm isolated and I'm sleeping. I'm sleepless, and sleeplessness messes with so many things, including the ability to think calmly and rationally, and all of that definitely plays a role in the way that you communicate with your partner.
Carrie Jeroslow:Add on to that hormones and the whack-a-doo hormone that is going on within a post-predmancy and for me that hormone imbalance I think lasted for years and years and years, which affects libido. It affects even the desire to want to be intimate at all and my husband showed up. He actually had to and willingly stepped in at the beginning of my first my oldest, because I was so sick after that birth. He was actually the one that bonded with my oldest and then the second one. I had a similar situation where I was feeding him pretty much around the clock for several years and it affects the ability, the interest, I think, of the mother to engage in anything other than just survival of like. I have to take care of this child, and how do I do that? So what do you find in terms of the couples that you work with and how they relate to each other? I know parenthood changes so many relationships, so what are your findings in the people that you work with?
Markella Kaplani:The reason I came into couples is because I started working with mothers from the very few mothers that took up this offer for support tended to bring their husbands along. They wanted their husbands to understand what's going on with them and they felt like, okay, you can't explain it better? Can I bring him along because we're struggling and going back a little bit? Mothers have a difficulty getting support when they feel this way in motherhood because of the shame and guilt that's built into getting this support. So as I was trying to support mothers through this, I felt like I kept on getting answers of yes, it's so needed and what you're doing is very important, Go ahead, but not me. And then I started questioning and researching and trying to understand why is this happening? Why is everybody impressed and saying, yes, this is very important work, but so many people are reluctant to sign up for it? And I realized that there is a lot of shame because automatically, by asking for support because I feel disillusioned in motherhood, it makes me a bad mother in my head.
Carrie Jeroslow:And I'm failing because I should just be able to do it all.
Markella Kaplani:I should be happy, yes, I should be able to do it all and I should be happy, and the fact that I need the support means I'm not happy in motherhood, which automatically makes me a bad mother. So there are all these messages that are out there that sabotage a mom from getting the support that she needs, and the one thing I noticed that got her in more easily so that she can see her part, is when the relationship also starts to get affected, and then it's the family unit that is at risk, and so then it becomes imperative because a mom has been taught women are being taught every day, from the minute that we're born, that one of the things that we are good at as women is self-sacrifice, and especially as mothers, and so when a mother is not feeling very well, she'll come last, and there's so many things, and the baby comes and we're naturally baby-centered. Everything about us becomes the center is the baby, and then we have been receiving this message of self-sacrifice as the ultimate thing that makes you a good person, a good mother, a good partner, and so then, when it comes to us feeling awful, it's like, yeah, I'll get to it if time allows, if finances allow, if, if, if, if, but when it comes to something that will affect our children. So if this marriage doesn't work out, for instance, it's not going to be the most positive thing. It happens, it may happen, it's fine, but if I can do something to salvage it, I want to give it a shot. And that's more easy to get someone to get the support. And so I realized, without knowing it, this is what happened in my practice. A mom would reluctantly come in to get support, but then she'd ask me can I bring my partner along? They need to hear this because, because they don't understand, it affects my psychology and it affects our relationship.
Markella Kaplani:To answer your question, because I did a whole go around there to answer your question, one of the main problems is that expectation that the mothers tend to have of how things are supposed to go, and I feel that this is very much affected by what we see around us and what we think we know about other mothers that we may know. So it's not just the media, but we have a lot of assumptions about our friends that seem to be coping well, about what goes on in their lives. We don't seem to take into account that. Oh yeah, but she has her mother living above the house and she's very supportive and she comes down every day. I'm giving you a random example, so these don't seem to factor in. We just see someone and we say, yeah, well, she's coping fine and I'm not. What's happening? So we have these expectations of things that we want.
Markella Kaplani:As women, we tend to not ask directly for what we want. We feel it's a sense of caring from our partners that they understand, that they should be able to understand what it is that I need, because it's so self-explanatory. I mean, you see me tired with a baby and arm, so do something, do the dishes, take the baby. Anything you would do would be fine.
Markella Kaplani:But men, on the other hand, or partners with a more masculine energy in this case it could be that as well, I've noticed are asking to be told what to do, and so a lot of times, what I see is a very tired mother who is carrying so much mental load, and it's valid. He doesn't want to have to tell you what it is that she needs for. Just pick up anything and do it. And then you have the partner who's saying there are so many things, I'm feeling so much pressure and guilt and I want to provide, and the first thing that I've been taught as a male is that the way to provide for you is financial, and so I am busting myself at work. Meanwhile, men will, because of the emotional aspect in society. They're not taught to express emotions as much.
Markella Kaplani:We're getting better as society goes, like you, know as time goes by, but it's still very prominent that they have a difficult time expressing their emotions and so inside a lot of them, eventually, through therapy, it comes out that it's been festering, that I'm missing time, I'm missing so many milestones that my baby is achieving. But this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be out there making the money so that I can allow my wife to be at home, to be with the baby. Meanwhile, the wife who is at home with the baby is feeling like my God, is this all my life is going to be? And it becomes a very big disconnect because he doesn't feel that he should pressure her with his feeling of guilt that he is not present for those moments, because he feels that this will add pressure to her and she feels that she's not supposed to tell him that maybe she's going stir crazy because then she's not a good mother to their child. And it starts to become this separation between them. The communication starts to break down and usually what I see is things that existed before the baby came start to become much bigger and amplified and come to the surface. I'll give you an example.
Markella Kaplani:I had a couple who it came to be that their communication was obviously very disconnected. They needed to find ways to communicate with one another. They weren't very direct in what they needed and they feared the other person's response, and that this, in the beginning, the way that they expressed it was coming from. When the baby came, we were so tired and were sleepless and all these things. Yes, great, but then, as we continued working and going deeper and deeper into the issue, it became apparent that this existed before.
Markella Kaplani:It's just that they had a very differentiated type of relationship, which meant that whenever I get upset with you, I go out with my friends and you're totally fine with it. So it's great, I don't discuss it with you. I can tell myself that maybe I'm being too much and over dramatic. We never deal with it, though, and I go out and I have drinks with my friends. I come back, we're good, it's forgotten. You have an issue with me, you also get to go and do your own thing, and that's how they would deal with it, but the communication issue was there before that exactly describes opening your relationship or shifting your relationship dynamic.
Carrie Jeroslow:I hear a lot of people equate it to having a child. A child will not fix a communication issue or a relationship issue just the same as opening your relationship or shifting your relationship structure. There's actually so much of what you just said that directly correlates to relationship diversity in terms of the expectations of relationships, the expectations we put on ourselves as having to do any one structure or any relationship right and I'm putting that in air quotes that there is even a right way to do it. And then down to the communication aspect that you brought up. Communication is the key. We cannot expect our partners to be a mind reader. I was even married to it psychic and I couldn't expect him to be a mind reader, because it just created resentment.
Carrie Jeroslow:The best way to understand what is going on with your partner is to have open communication with them and actually speak what is going on. But what I imagine that you deal with a lot is there's something that goes on between two people and it just gets covered up by coping mechanisms, and then you get to the point where, especially bringing a child in that I think people can come to realize that oh, wow. Maybe there's something about our partnership that wasn't strong in the beginning that we really need to talk about, and so it could be a blessing in disguise of the child bringing up the things that were the issues before you even had the child. So let's say that a couple comes to you with that and they are maybe even four or five years into their parenting journey and they're realizing there are things that we have never dealt with. How do you start to unravel all of the different parts that have piled on each other to get to what some of the core issues are?
Markella Kaplani:It really depends on the couple, but I have had couples that came in later, because what we've been talking about, the identity shift, it actually has a name. So for mothers it's called matrescence and it's ongoing. It doesn't happen when we become mothers. It begins from the minute we conceive, where I would even say as far back as when we consider conceiving matrescence starts its way. It starts the process, and when we conceive and then give birth, we start to shift in our identity. This shift in identity is not just who I am as a personality, but it's my spirituality. Everything is affected. Basically, what happens is if we consider ourselves in the middle, or ego in the middle. Now, whatever that identity was, it's motherhood, and motherhood then affects my career, it affects my social life, it affects the way I connect to my community, it affects my spirituality, it affects my hormones, my physical self, and so what we think of as another added role. So okay, just like I am an employee at this and just as I'm, let's say, a wife, or as I'm a daughter and a sister, I'm also now a mother. But it's not an added role. And with this expectation come other things that just because I've been doing well in all of my other roles and I've been coping, and I have two different jobs and I do all of this. I'll handle motherhood. But motherhood is not just an added thing that you would have to balance. It changes your entire self and your brain, by the way, as well Metrescence it's been shown through research that our wiring changes completely.
Markella Kaplani:For mothers it's permanent. So one example is the way that we think about our outlook about life and the world changes from I to we. It's been documented neurologically. For fathers it will change. It's usually related to how much time they spend at the beginning of a child's life, how present they're able to be, and it's very unfortunate that society doesn't allow for fathers to take off a lot of time. Paternity leave in some countries is not even is non-existent. Otherwise it's very short in most places in the world, and so fathers don't get that bonding time and in the beginning it's critical for their brains to adjust to what's happening and to be able to connect with the child and to be able to also rewire and get these benefits, because these are benefits, and so what you're saying is that this could be a blessing in disguise.
Markella Kaplani:My identity shifting and your identity shifting could actually bring us closer together. This is an opportunity for me. It all starts from the individual. So before we even look at the couple, what I do in my work is I don't just work with the couple. I have actually decided from the get go and eventually became a system that I use that I work with the partners individually and as a couple. So one week I'll see them individually, we'll have two sessions, one with the one partner, one with the other. The next week I see them together and then again split and then together. And the reason for that is, before we even look at how the couple has been affected, is what's coming up for you as an individual? How are you changing? What is this bringing up for you? And then we get to the couple.
Markella Kaplani:So I did have a couple come in and they had they'd been a couple for a while. Basically, all of their children had gone up to the stage where they were about teens or older, which, as they described it, meant that they needed less of them. They were less dependent on the parents and as parents together they were great partners in their parenting journey. Their communication was great, they were on the same page when they were needed less as parents and there was less to talk about in terms of their children. Suddenly, fights started to happen. Suddenly, the resentment started to rise and it was because within parenthood, they had lost themselves and they had lost the intimate part of their relationship. And they held on to the part that made them strong and bonded them, but they let everything else go. And what was very interesting is that we got to realize that they actually were very much in love and they had a very, very strong bond.
Markella Kaplani:What started creating issues is that they relied on that bond so much that they said everything else is in chaos. This wasn't conscious, it happened unconsciously. There's so much to take care of right now, with all the kids and with work, with all these things. Where can I drop the ball? You usually drop the ball somewhere where you feel it's more safe. It will hold, it's stronger, and so, because their love was strong, they dropped the ball there. But they dropped it. They got comfortable, they dropped it for too long and you can only drop it for so long. So then one of them was feeling that the partner wasn't in love with her anymore and the other one kept on feeling like whatever I do, I keep on making mistakes and I can't show her what is happening for me, I can't tell her how much I love her, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Carrie Jeroslow:I bet that that is pretty common, because there are aspects of that story that sound familiar to me in terms of with my husband and I, and I would say that it really there is a survival mentality. For me that is like I just need to get through this day where the kids feel loved. That's really important. I just need to get through this day where the kids feel loved, where they are fed, where they have had all the things that they need and that my husband and I have time to connect about the things that need to be done. And then time runs out. Time is finite. It is a finite resource and really is about making the time, and I think my husband and I are really focused on this a lot lately, with the kids needing us less, which is really nice place to be in, I would say, because then we can focus a little bit more on what he and I need.
Carrie Jeroslow:I love that you talk about mattressence being a continual evolution, not just into motherhood but all through motherhood, because I feel like I've been having transitions the entire time, from the moment of conception to now and I'm thinking will continue as they grow up, and also naming that both partners go through that kind of identity shift. I really appreciate that and I will say that there's a part of this idea of a polyamorous family or a triad or quad or something that that idea of it takes a village to raise a family that I have not had the experience of but sounds really wonderful to not feel so alone. And when we raise children in communities it allows more support, it allows more of a space for someone to say, for a mother to say, I need a break, will you watch our child? And here it is, that there's three or four people to choose from just sounds that that would be an incredible experience, and so I appreciate your work as I bet it is really helpful and helping a lot of couples.
Carrie Jeroslow:There is someone out there, let's say, who is in the beginning and maybe the first three years of motherhood or fatherhood and they are feeling that disconnect that you talk about between parents, which again, I think what I appreciate is that you are normalizing that that happens and even having the best intentions to stay connected, just through whatever high needs that the child might have, jobs, all the things that come into play, that that disconnect does happen. It happens more than probably most people talk about. What is one way? If someone is out there listening there, saying I can't do coaching or therapy yet, I would like to, but I would like to take a step. I'm realizing that I have this disconnect in my own life with my partner. What is one tip that you could give them to bring a little bit more connection to their relationship with their partner or partners?
Markella Kaplani:I find that the best one, and it's not only best because of the results, but it's also quite easy to apply If we take a little bit of courage. Where you have to take a deep breath before you do it is narration. So it has to start with me. I have to first realize what my needs are, because a lot of times, truthfully, couples come in to resolve the issue that's happening between them, but this is why I also see them individually, because there's a lot happening for me personally. And then I need to figure what I need, because a lot of times I feel that there's a lack, I feel a void, and I feel that you, as my partner, are not filling that void. I'm very resentful toward you, but then I don't know what it is that I want. When it comes down to it, it's like okay, what are you asking me to do? Nothing satisfies me, and that's because I didn't find out first. But let's assume that I know what I need and I want to work it out, that maybe, if this is maybe not an irrational need because I'm very sleepless, but I need to express it to you so that we can work it out together. Narration will help in that, so that I can actually say what it is that I'm thinking. So what I notice in a lot of couples is that there's a lot that's lost in translation, and this is not something that you have to be in therapy for.
Markella Kaplani:You can start doing it at home with your partner today is to just say what it is that you're feeling, but the entire thing. So we'll usually come to our partners and say you didn't take out the trash, and I do everything, and did I have to tell you to take out the trash? I'm saying a very common thing that could create a squabble for no reason and it could even escalate like something like this has created huge arguments with people that I see, and what's underlying that is I feel that you are not considering how much work I'm putting in being at home with the baby and you think it's an easy job and you expect me to take out the trash because you keep on pointing out how you work 10 hours and how it's very stressful and you come back and you have to be told, and I feel like I have another baby and I'm sorry to offend you, but this is what it feels like to me. Can you explain to me why it is that you can't think of the trash and I have to tell you. If I express all of that, then my partner can turn around and say you know what? I'm upset minded, and it's not that I don't want to help you, but if you don't tell me that I need to do it, then I'll forget and you'll be angry with me. I am asking you as help to me Consider me an idiot.
Markella Kaplani:I'm asking you a help to me to tell me about the trash when I forget and I understand now that it's not about the trash, it's about what it means to you that I didn't take it out, and I really will do much better and they usually do I'll do much better trying to think about it first myself. But when I forget, please, it's not about me forgetting you I'm upset minded. Help me so expressing the entire thing, which includes, basically what usually is missing is the emotion, the vulnerability of the emotion. I feel hurt when you don't take out the trash. It's not just the trash, then, it's my feelings that are hurt, because I think you don't consider me, and that's one thing that a lot of women will express.
Markella Kaplani:I feel that he doesn't consider me and he doesn't consider all of that I contribute and then the men feel like I don't think that she understands what I'm going through and what I'm sacrificing. And whenever I try to help, she keeps on pushing back. And that's because men will usually be like, okay, what do I do? Tell me what, and they'll start doing things. And women just want to be hurt and validated. And men don't realize that when they start doing things, it's actually making things worse, because they trigger the fear that I'm I not doing enough.
Markella Kaplani:Number one. Number two you don't understand me. You're doing all the wrong things. I didn't need this from you. I don't want you to guide and the men feel she doesn't listen to me, she no longer admires me, she doesn't want to hear my. I give her advice and she starts yelling at me.
Markella Kaplani:That's something I did too. My husband would give me advice and I would be like stop telling me what to do. It made me feel like I was a bad mother that needed guidance, and he felt like you used to listen to me before. We used to be partners and you no longer listen to me. Do you not respect my opinion? Or did you ride this high horse and now you think you're the best mom in the world and you know everything. And neither of those were true. But every time he tried to do something before giving me emotional support, before validating and normalizing what I was feeling, I felt like he was just telling me it's simple, just do that. When I asked for the emotional support first, and for him to ask for permission, in a sense, to share what he thinks as a solution so that I can tell him when I'm ready to hear it, everything shifted.
Carrie Jeroslow:So all of that comes with narration just staying what we're thinking and I love that you started with knowing what you need and want and maybe taking it one step underneath. Not just I need him to take out the trash, that is just a result of a deeper need and so taking a little bit of time to be vulnerable with yourself. I love that word vulnerability, because I think vulnerability can lead to emotional connection, and that emotional connectivity that you're talking about is that if I am willing to be vulnerable with myself, first to say I don't have to do it all and I can't, and that makes me feel this way, that I can't do it because I want to do it and I've been programmed to think that I should. And so vulnerability, understanding what do I need. And then vulnerability, being in a space to communicate that with courage and openness to your partner.
Carrie Jeroslow:In that narration, not just I need you to take out the trash, but this is what I'm feeling, right, starting with those words, this is what I'm feeling and this is what I want to express to you, and why the trash is an important part of it, because it has to do with me feeling unsupported and that kind of discussion and communication and openness can help breed connection or reconnection, and a reconnection with the new identities, having gone through the beginning stages of the mattressence and the patrescence and really this re-identification, to come together in a space of newness, not in the space of where we once were, because I think that that just leads you to failure, because you'll never be that couple without children. Your identity has shifted and even just acknowledging that seems like that would be helpful. It'd be like I have shifted, I'm learning who I am, you're learning who you are and we're learning who we are. Together in this dynamic is not only couple, but also family, exactly.
Markella Kaplani:The same thing that we were saying at the beginning of how the parent is changing and shifting and needs to accept that it's not going back to normal, it's creating a new normal. That could even be so much better If we accept the process and we allow a little bit more flow. Then it's the same exact thing when it comes into the couple as well, accepting that we both have changed and that this is not a bad thing. So whenever a couple will come in, they'll say she's changed, his changed, what's happening, the way that they're treating me and the way that they speak to me and she used to do that for me and he used to do this for me and what's happening now? And they say it with such a negative connotation.
Markella Kaplani:But this change doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's just that we see the negatives because we're programmed to see changes negative. But it could actually be if we accept the fact that, yes, I will change, you will change. Let's make sure that while this is happening and within the chaos, we find small snippets, because I get very angry with advice that gives either an individual parent or a couple of kids like, oh, self-care, do this and put candles and do all of that and that's not realistic for most families, even if the child is not high needs. That's not very realistic at the beginning and there's not many people that have that much support to have a date night every week. We throw that out there. It's like have a date night.
Carrie Jeroslow:That piece of advice would frustrate me so much I can't even tell you have a date night once a week. I'm like I don't have anyone to watch my child. We lived away from family and all of our friends had little kids too, and it just never worked out, and so that piece of advice was really frustrating for me.
Markella Kaplani:Yes, and you know why it's frustrating, and tell me if I'm wrong. It's frustrating because if that is the advice that most people are giving and if this is what will help me as I change and he changes, this is what will help us change and grow together and I can't do it with him, then what does that say about the progression of our relationship? We're doomed. That creates frustrations, like, okay, if that's the solution and I can't do it, then I'm screwed.
Carrie Jeroslow:Yeah, yeah. And there are so many other ways to find that kind of connection. I had a friend who would tell me that she started reconnecting with her husband by just sitting and drinking coffee together. They didn't even talk, but they were in the same room and they were just drinking coffee and they were just being in the same space After so much disconnection. That was their one way to start to move into connecting. It's just as simple as being in the same space, having coffee together and that's just sat with me for so long because it seems so small. But she was like it was the beginning of really coming back to each other. And so, markela, this is amazing work that you're doing and for anyone who's out there saying this, is exactly the kind of help that I need. How do I find Markela? Tell us how we can connect with you.
Markella Kaplani:You can find me at Instagram at markelacaplani Markela with double L and my website is also markelacaplanicom and I've created a quiz very recently that seems to be something that people like is about how we are as a couple after parenthood and finding out the developmental stage that we are in as a couple, because not only children go through developmental stages, couples also go through developmental stages, and it's not a linear process. We could be going cyclical, we could be regressing, just as children may also regress into their older developmental stages, and so I've created a short quiz so that a couple can see where they are in their parenthood journey as a couple and how the stage where they are in parenthood is affecting how they are as a couple, and the results also give some actionable steps of what you could do, depending on whatever stage you're at.
Carrie Jeroslow:That sounds so informative and that's markelacaplanicom right. Okay, we'll have the links in the show notes so you can hop on right over to her website and take that quiz. That sounds like it could give you so much information and a place to start and a place to start reconnecting with yes, your partner or partners, but also with yourself. That is the most important relationship we have, because if you are not connected to yourself and you don't know yourself, you'll never know your needs and how to express that to your partners and even your children when they get a little bit older.
Carrie Jeroslow:I've started that. My kids are now 15 and 10, and being able to actually state my needs to my children in an age-appropriate way has been really transformational in my life. So please hop over and check out Markela's work and thank you so much for being here. This has been such a wonderful conversation. I have really needed this and I'm sure there's many others who have needed this information to navigate this time, and also I really want to send a big thank you out to you for normalizing this stage of life. So thank you for your work.
Markella Kaplani:Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk about this. I feel very passionate and it's been lovely being here with you.
Carrie Jeroslow:Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast. Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get your sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel, where I'll give you even more free resources and information, all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes. Stay curious. The relationship is as unique as you are.
