What Makes Polyamory Work (Part 2) with Libby Sinback

Episode 094:
What Makes Polyamory Work (Part 2) with Libby Sinback
 
This week's episode is super special to me. I got to have a conversation with my friend, Libby Sinback, a relationship coach and host of "Making Polyamory Work."  We've had several long conversations, but this is one that got recorded!
 
This is part 2 of our conversation. Check out Part 1 here.
 
In this part, we go into Libby’s expertise with the questions, 

“What makes polyamory work?” 

And

“What makes polyamory NOT work?”

Libby has so much experience personally and with the thousands of clients she has worked with individually and through her group program.
 
 You don't want to miss this one!
 
 Connect with Libby:
Website | Making Polyamory Work Podcast
 
 
This is Relationships Reimagined.

Join the conversation as we dive into a new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.
   
   ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️

Get Your Free Relationship Diversity Guide

Connect with me:
YouTube

Instagram

Website

Get my book, “Why Do They Always Break Up with Me? The Ultimate Guide to Overcome Heartbreak for Good

Podcast Music by Zachariah Hickman

Transcript

Libby Sinback: 0:00

You will need to get good at advocating for yourself, because I do think in monogamy there are ways you can cheat and not have to really ask for what you need. But I think when you're really operating and relating outside the box, I think you have to learn how to identify your wants and needs and learn how to express them to other people, because the system's too complex for that mind reading to be possible, especially when the dynamics are so fluid, because you might want one thing one day and want another thing the next, and so you need to get really good at noticing that, even if your partner is really good at knowing what you used to want. Again, I think it's so dynamic that it's going to change.

Carrie Jeroslow: 0:40

Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from solaramary to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, keri Jarislow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part two of my conversation with my friend, libby Sinback.

Carrie Jeroslow: 1:34

If you haven't listened to part one, stop this and go back and listen to there. That'll give you a lot of foundation of what is to come in this part of the conversation. In part one, we talk a lot about our own relationships and share the struggles that both of us have faced in our own unique relationships, and in this episode we're going to talk more about Libby's perspectives on what makes polyamory work. This is her expertise and she has so much to share. You will learn so much and I know after hearing this and after hearing her talk, you're going to hop right over to her podcast called Making Polyamory Work. Let's get into part two of this conversation. Lately, polyamory is having its moment. Nonmonogamy is having its moment. It's having a moment, I should say.

Libby Sinback: 2:28

More than ever, I would say, right now, yeah it's out a lot.

Carrie Jeroslow: 2:31

A lot of people are interested in it, trying it, wanting to try it. There's a lot more education, which is great, and I think there are many people who identify as like this is something that I've always felt and it's now putting words to what I've always felt. And then there's other people who are like well, I want this to make sense to me, but I'm struggling with it and specifically with dismantling and pulling apart all of the programming, all of the monogamous programming, and it is deep, because I know I'm still pulling up with like, oh my God, but I grew up thinking this very specific thing about relationships, which is so monogamous central.

Libby Sinback: 3:18

What's the specific thing? What's the thing?

Carrie Jeroslow: 3:22

That a partner should be your everything. You have a great episode on all the different relationships that we try to put in one and I loved that episode. But I think that my partner should be my everything. They should be the best at everything.

Libby Sinback: 3:41

It should be the one you go to first and foremost.

Carrie Jeroslow: 3:44

Yeah, All the things right, and that runs deep because of all of the roles, and so I think that's the scripting that I'm really looking at continuously all the time. My first open relationship was in 2004. And I'm currently partnered with my other partner for four years, but still it's still coming up. So, for people who are now just becoming aware that there are other ways to be in relationship and polyamory is something that is really interesting to them, what do you think is something that someone should be thinking about specifically as they start the journey into polyamory or into alternative relationship?

Libby Sinback: 4:33

And so we're talking about someone who it's not always felt right to them.

Libby Sinback: 4:37

It's not something that's deeply ingrained in who they are? Because, yeah, I agree with you, there are a lot of people who would be perfectly happy to just keep with the monogamous script if it was actually working for them or if it was working for their partner right. But either the monogamous script isn't working or they have a partner who doesn't like it and it doesn't work for them and they want that person. And then I would say, then from there you end up in two camps. One camp is people who are like dragged, kicking and screaming toward it, and people call that polyamory under duress, which I don't like that phrasing at all, but polyamory that is not their choice. And then there are people who it's not what they were looking for, but when they look at it they're like oh, I mean, this doesn't seem to be antithetical to a way to be. I could see doing this. It's not what I need, but I can get philosophically behind it. It doesn't feel like a huge betrayal, it's not painful, but then at the same time, like you said, there still might be a lot of unlearning that would need to be done.

Libby Sinback: 5:43

So I guess the reason I wanted to separate those two out is because the people who are in that polyamory under duress, as long as you're in the place where how you're thinking about it is. I have to. I have to have a choice. I think that's just a very hard road and I wouldn't recommend it. Actually, if you can't figure out how to make an empowered choice for yourself, you've got a choice to do it or a choice to leave. I think there's going to always be a part of you that's going to resist any of the unlearning that you might need to do because it doesn't feel like it's you, it doesn't feel like it's for you, and I hear that sometimes from some of my clients, like I'm doing this but it's not for me.

Libby Sinback: 6:25

And I always want to gently and push back and say I understand that story that it doesn't feel like it's for you, but are you wanting this person? Are you wanting this life? I understand you don't want some of the things that come with it, but that's any relationship that we're in until the end of time. Any relationship we're in until the end of time is going to come with things we like and things we don't like and we always have to come up with am I getting enough of what I want to accept the things that I don't like and to grieve the things that I want that I'm not going to get.

Libby Sinback: 6:55

And it is, I think, unkind to you and to the other person to be carrying a big backpack full of resentment into that relationship all the time for those things you wanted that you didn't get and for the things that you don't want, that you have to put up with. I think it's better to change the shape of the relationship so that you're not feeling that all the time. I think I just really want to start there, because I think before I say oh, but if you do want to open into this, here's some things you could do. Make sure you're not doing that.

Carrie Jeroslow: 7:26

Yeah, and that does not make polyamory work. It does not. It does not make polyamory work. And I want to just bring a personal story to that, because I said that I had an open relationship in 2004. And when I finished that and met my husband although my husband and I talked from the very beginning of our even friendship relationship, we don't want to follow societal norms, we want to be our own people, we want to always be questioning things when it got to the time where, okay, the kids were at a certain age and he's like I still want to be talking about this, and I thought, well, you know what I'm really okay to, not, I'm really okay to just be in our monogamous relationship, and he's like no, I really want to talk about it.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:10

And there was a moment where I realized that if we got to the end of our lives and we never ventured and tried this, that there would be regret on both of our sides, because for me, it was fear-based. And so I went into it and just said, okay, what are the things that I'm scared about and how can I make this work for me? And it was not even totally conscious work, like I'm going to sit down and workshop myself and what are all the things. It was just like more of an intention of like I got to figure this out Because there was a part of me that wanted it for him. I wanted it for him and I wanted it for me, but I wanted it to feel good to me. And that was the beginning of shifting the dynamic for us from moving from where it would have been under duress or how you said that, to saying nope, let's just move forward with this.

Libby Sinback: 9:08

And I want to name something that just came up for me as you were talking, Carrie, about that, About how can I make this? Good for me Is that I think a lot of times, when we enter into any kind of relationship and I mean even a friendship, even if you're a non-monogamous and you have other partners, you enter into your relationships, Kind of making a deal. I think I think you're making a deal with yourself and maybe making an unconscious or overt sometimes very overt deal with the other person about like what this is, Like, what are you doing, what are you giving up and what are you hoping to get. And I know that makes it sound very transactional and of course, it's also not that right, Because one of the things you get is love and connection and joy and the beauty and magic of another human being. But I think it's also important to say that a lot of times we also show up with this is a deal I'm making. I'm willing to do these things to get these things that I want.

Libby Sinback: 10:00

And I think we do this especially, especially, especially, in long-term partnerships where we're building together, which is a totally different type of relationship than a lot of other relationships we enter into where we're not building anything necessarily, but when we're in that life partner dynamic. There's thousands of negotiations that we do all the time. I've talked to people who kids wasn't necessarily the thing that they wanted wanted, they were willing but not wanting, and so they made a deal. Okay, I'm with this person who really wants kids. I'll make the deal. It's not going to cost me so much to have kids, so I'll do it. But I might not have done it if it was just up to me, you know.

Carrie Jeroslow: 10:39

Yeah.

Libby Sinback: 10:40

And people do that with where you choose to live. People do that with how you relate to family. People do that with what you keep in the house, in your pantry, how much you exercise All these different little compromises that you make in order to share a life with somebody. And what I think sometimes happens when someone drops the now I want to be polyamorous into that is that it blows up the whole deal. Yes, you were like I made a deal and it was built on all these compromises and now you're asking for this. Like that blows all these other deals that I made out of the water and now we have to renegotiate all of it. Or I'm so pissed off about all the deals that I made and now you're asking for it. I mean, I just want to extend the compassion around that when you make those deals and I want to celebrate that the way you showed up to it was OK. This changes the deal for me. This changes the deal for me. How can I make it still a good deal for me? How can I still make it a good deal for me? I want it to be a good deal and I just I really want to invite people to think about that.

Libby Sinback: 11:50

If you're in this situation where you've just had the deal blown up, it's really worth thinking about. You don't have to keep any part of the deal that you've made, including staying together, but you could decide to stay together and renegotiate a lot of other parts of the deal. Like, maybe you gave up on having a job that travels and takes you out of town a lot because you really felt like, well, my partner wants me here, but now my partner wants other partners. Yeah, I'm going to follow that dream now and go travel more. Maybe it's not for me that I'm going to date other people. Maybe it's for me. I'm going to go after something else that I let go of for this relationship that now I'm not going to let go of. So, yeah, I think that's important to consider.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:28

Yeah, and listen. Sometimes explosions are what creates new pathways.

Libby Sinback: 12:36

And creates whole planets.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:37

Right, exactly.

Libby Sinback: 12:39

Creates whole solar systems.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:40

Yeah, that chaos and that deep amount of discomfort, If you can take that and run with it or maybe even just limp with it or crawl with it or whatever, to get to a place where there is so many options and a brand new path to step into more of alignment with who you are. Like you said, lots of possibilities, but not for not fun all the way, except if you like discomfort, which you know.

Libby Sinback: 13:14

I think there is opportunity in there, for sure. Yeah, and there's also if you really liked your deal, there's a lot of grief, total, yes, grieving, that just came to my mind.

Carrie Jeroslow: 13:28

There's a lot of grieving and grieving is important.

Libby Sinback: 13:32

Grieving is important, even if you're excited about it, because whenever you're changing the deal, there are things you give up. There are always going to be things you give up, even that idea, carrie, that you just said about, like my person has to be my everything and do everything, the best of all of the people that I know. They have to be my top pick in every category, and if they're not, then they're failing me or I'm failing them in some kind of way, and that because it's I want to name, like having a person. This is, I feel like the thing that people don't talk about enough. Is that having a person who is your one stop shop, who really is the top person every category, like what a lovely idea, what a lovely idea.

Libby Sinback: 14:12

That's a beautiful idea. It doesn't tend to be reality, but it's a beautiful idea. I put that alongside the idea that I would love it if people just knew what I wanted, without me having to tell them. It's a beautiful idea, like people are. Like you know, people are very quick to say, well, obviously you need to tell people what you want and I'm like no, no, no, but it would be great. Yeah, read my mind. And there are times when my people do read my mind and that is a beautiful experience when, oh, you just get me and I don't have to tell you, oh, that's so good. I mean, of course it is, you know. And so I think we need to make room for that grief that comes in when it isn't the beautiful thing we were hoping for. And I think that that is the thing that I would say number one, maybe number one for me of all the things I think is important to do If you're going to approach a shift in your paradigm, even though there's all these things you may be getting is to understand that there is loss and to not gloss over that, to grieve the loss. I was recently talking about that to people in my group. I'm running this group course right now called Foundations of Open Relating for Wild and Tender Hearts. I guess you can guess why I call it that now. And somebody asked what are some ways that you process grief? What are some practices? And one that I have been practicing recently, just with myself actually, and there are a lot of good grief practices. Jolie Hamilton talks about that on my podcast recently, about finding a playlist that just allows you to just go take the elevator down to that feeling and just feel it, but then have a way to get you out of it, like make yourself a little playlist. I love that idea. Another one that I like is I've written out a story that I wanted to be true, like I wrote it, or an idea that I was really attached to. This is not going to happen and I know it's not going to happen. And then I take that piece of writing that I did and I release it. I either bury it or I burn it, but I release it after writing it, but like really holding it and going, oh yeah, I really wanted that, I really wanted this, really wanted this. That's not going to happen, and the thing is that's a process with any relationship. I feel it so much.

Libby Sinback: 16:47

As a mom, I wanted my kids to both love this movie that I love. But they don't love it, they hate it. They think it's stupid Grief. And that's just a little one. But sometimes when we become parents we really have this dream, like I had a dream.

Libby Sinback: 17:07

I read that stupid book Bringing Up Bebe and I was like I'm going to be just like a French parent and my kids are going to be so well-mannered and they're going to eat all the interesting foods that the French kids eat. I'm going to make them try everything and my kids are going to eat vegetables. All these ideas that I had that were like, Right, oh, noop. And so grief upon grief upon grief there. And if you can't grieve, well, I think it's a harder road. It's a harder road to just be able to move through. I wanted this thing. I can't get this thing.

Libby Sinback: 17:46

And I think a lot of people understandably going back to that whole armored thing that we were talking about before, like we're armoring ourselves against disappointment, right, we're armoring ourselves against hoping and having our hopes dashed. And my mom does that to the point where she doesn't ask for things. She's so armored that if she dares hope for something she probably has already figured out that she's definitely going to get it. And I looked at that and I noticed how small that made her life because there were just so many risks she just wasn't willing to take because she didn't want to risk the disappointment. And I was like I want my life to be big, so I'm going to risk the hell out of disappointment. I'm going to learn how to get really good at it and you know what helped with that was theater. Oh, theater.

Carrie Jeroslow: 18:35

That's a whole other podcast. I want to do is like how being in theater can help your life, right, right.

Libby Sinback: 18:42

Because there you are, on stage, in front of a panel of people who are judging you and to see whether you're going to get the part or not. And over and over again, hope, stashed, hope stashed. No, you're not good enough, you're too short, you're too this, you're too that, you're too loud. You can't hit that note, whatever it is, and that was another example of something that I was like. This is really hard and painful as hell for me. I'm going to run right at it.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:05

Well, it seems like becoming really good at grieving and moving through the grief helps someone to move through that discomfort and open up to more authentic living. Because I know I'll say for myself, when I'm scared of that grieving process, I stay guarded, like you were saying, and then don't try the things that I want to try because of fear that I will be disappointed or uncomfortable. And so getting really intimate with that grieving process sounds like it is the first step, even in going into polyamory. Exploring polyamory, exploring different relationships, a different alternative.

Libby Sinback: 19:56

I mean it's so funny because I remember when I first started dating this was horrible. I remember how horrible this was. I first started dating and I had a real idea about what I wanted. When I started dating polyamorously, I should say I had had a kid and I had a real intention to like. I wanted to expand my networks, I wanted to expand into knowing more parents and I thought foolishly and not foolishly I ended up working out. But, like, dating other parents would be a great way to make parent connections.

Libby Sinback: 20:27

And I met this guy and he was in the same field of work that I was in. I found him very attractive. He was very cool. He was a dad. His wife was cool. They lived just down the street. Their kids were reasonably close in age to my kids, although they had one that was a little older and like just check, check, check, check, check all these boxes, oh.

Libby Sinback: 20:47

And he was dominant and sexy and he liked karaoke, and so we went on a couple of dates together and then it just petered out. He was not interested. I was heartbroken. I got my hopes. My hopes were to the ceiling, how excited I was about him and we hit it off and he seemed into me, but then he just lost interest really quickly and I was like what?

Libby Sinback: 21:13

And I was like 11 years old again and I remember how awkward I felt and how painful that was and he ended up being someone that was in my friend circles and that I got to know more over the years and as I got to know him more I was like, oh, no way would that have worked. We are so different and we would have never been compatible as relationship. I mean, at the time I didn't know, I was on the ACE spectrum. He's probably more of a mega sexual. I would have felt like like I was constantly disappointing him and part of the reason why he stopped seeing was maybe was because I wasn't escalating things physically quickly enough for him for it to be worth his while.

Libby Sinback: 21:54

And I respect that. If what you're looking for is somebody who's really sex forward and partnering and that's not who you are, like great filtering mechanism. But at the time I was just like, why don't you fight me? And God, that is what dating is like, right, I think that's why a lot of people who are monogamous and want to remain monogamous One of the things I hear a lot of people say is like why would I want to date again? Dating is horrible.

Libby Sinback: 22:23

Right, and that's where you're putting yourself out to be rejected and then to be disappointed, and then have to grieve the hope you had for what that relationship would be, and that happened over and over again to me with other partners that I had. There was a partner that I still am in relationship with, where I was again it was like, oh, he's got such a cool wife and his kids are cool and everything is awesome. I'm not going to be a partner. I'm not going to be a partner. I'm not going to be a partner, I'm not going to be a partner Again, just crushed. I wanted us to be able to be friends and we just not to be. The thing is, if I wasn't able to feel that disappointment, grieve, and let go imagine how I would have been constantly trying to fix things and make it work.

Carrie Jeroslow: 23:23

It's interesting, as I'm saying this, Bring that into your other relationships too and the feeling of that you failed in I'm putting air quotes into your other relationships.

Libby Sinback: 23:34

And that not enoughness, and yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's funny actually, as I'm even talking about like don't make it work. It makes me think about the title of my podcast, like how do you make polyamory work? And I'm like you don't make it work, you don't make it, you make it work for you, you make you work for it. But I don't think you can't force anything with other people, right? Because other people are going to other people. So I think there's a lot of letting go.

Carrie Jeroslow: 24:07

Yeah, well, I was going to ask you and we've been going for so long that you and I can talk for hours, so I was going to ask you. Bringing it back to it's about you and what you are wanting, right? So what kind of person do you think polyamory works for? Because there's a lot of people that are like, well, that sounds cool, but I don't have the bandwidth. I don't even have the ability to do it, I just don't have it. So who do you think polyamory works for? Oh, I don't know, if I put it like that, what kind of person do you think can, whether they identify as polyamorous, or it's a choice that they're making?

Libby Sinback: 24:47

Let me answer your question the way that I would answer it, which would be I think there are elements that are going to make you more or less successful. I don't know if it's in a type of person, because I think all types of people can be happy in polyamory if that's what they want. Right, for whatever reason. And I don't think there's a good motivation to do polyamory. I do think there's some not good ones, and we already talked about one, which is if I feel like I'm being forced, I don't think that's a good motivation. I don't think. I think if you really are feeling forced into something that is excruciatingly painful for you, whatever it is, that needs to change and it won't. That just won't go over. Well, and I want to recognize that that is easier said than done, because some people who are feeling forced, it's because they have financial entanglements, they have children together, they own a house together and it's not cheap to live separately. It's not easy when someone wants to change the deal and you built a lot on your deal and so disentangling it is not easy. But so what? I would say what are the things that help people be successful? So we talked about grieving. Well, I think another one that I really think is useful is recognizing that you will need to get good at advocating for yourself, because I do think in monogamy there are ways you can cheat and not have to really ask for what you need. But I think when you're really operating and relating outside the box, I think you have to learn how to identify your wants and needs and learn how to express them to other people, because the system's too complex for that mind reading to be possible, especially when the dynamics are so fluid, because you might want one thing one day and want another thing the next, and so you need to get really good at noticing that, even if your partner is really good at knowing what you used to want. Again, I think it's so dynamic that it's going to change, and so that's another piece just getting really good at listening to yourself and knowing what feels right to you and what doesn't.

Libby Sinback: 26:48

And that, and alone for some people they have because they don't want to be disappointed or because they want to be accepted more than live into themselves. And again, these are valid, reasonable choices to make. They have shut down any access within themselves to their own desire, Definitely, yeah, I actually think this happens a lot with cis men. Actually, I think a lot of cis men have shut down their access to their own desire because they have a lot of. This is what I should do. This is what it means to be a man. This is what it means to be a provider. This is what it means to be a good person. And they have not integrated their own desires into that mix. And then it gets very messy for them when they're in a more dynamic situation where they have to listen to themselves because they don't have any practice. Definitely and that's not the only group that I think has a hard time with that but I think it's worth calling that particular group out as a group that struggles with that.

Libby Sinback: 27:46

Another one I would say is something that you brought up, which is get really good at you turning with yourself. If you're in a situation that is not working for you and that you don't like, it's so easy to blame external things. It's that person's fault. It's that person's fault. And again, I'm not saying sometimes you do have to responsibly externalize, and I do know some people who, over you turn, who you turn so much that they take responsibility for everything. They think they've manifested everything in their life. And I will tell you, it's impossible. Sometimes shit just happens to you and it's not fair and it's not okay and you didn't bring it on. But there are plenty of people who don't do enough. You turning with themselves to see the role that they're playing or the agency that they have to shift something, and I think that's a really important skill in non-monogamy and it goes hand in hand with being able to advocate for yourself is also take responsibility for yourself.

Carrie Jeroslow: 28:44

Those are amazing things. And then one thing that kind of encompasses those but I'll just add, is the desire to want to grow and evolve.

Libby Sinback: 28:56

Absolutely. I would cosine that 100%.

Carrie Jeroslow: 28:59

Yeah, because if I didn't want to look at myself and actually find sparks and excitement with the new things that I learn about myself whether they're cool things or things that are painful if I didn't actually enjoy that process overall, then I would never want to go into anything that was different. I would just somewhat someone to write the script for me, because it does take a lot of getting to know yourself, like you said, but also wanting to evolve and grow.

Libby Sinback: 29:31

Well, I'm being okay with change and uncertainty because I think when you're doing growth, you're moving into uncertain territory, you're moving into something new that you don't know what it's going to be. If you change, everything else around you is going to look different and you don't know. Like, just like the caterpillar and the butterfly analogy. Like a caterpillar has no idea when it goes into that cocoon what the hell is going to happen, and then it has no idea what it's going to be like as a butterfly. And then there it is, it's a butterfly and it's a total, radical change.

Libby Sinback: 30:01

And if change codes is unsafe to you which again is a totally understandable experience to have then putting yourself in a situation where, because change is going to happen in this world, no matter what, like you're not going to be able to avoid change, but you can not hurl yourself into a hurricane of change if you don't want to. And so if change is not for you yeah I would say and being in uncertainty is not for you, then non-monogamy may be a harder road than it might be for some other people who kind of embrace change and uncertainty and growth. And the last one that I would say there is tied to that is being able to, you know which all humans are able to do this, but some people really are mad about it is being able to hold two things that are opposite as being true at the same time.

Carrie Jeroslow: 30:51

Yeah.

Libby Sinback: 30:52

Because when we're in multiple relationships and again this shows up as when your parents are multiple children or when you have multiple family members who are I mean so this is a skill that doesn't only show up in polyamory, but just being able to hold I really love this person right now and I also love this person right now in a totally different way, and it's not equal. I had this idea of what it is, but now here we are with these two truths that are completely opposite of each other. If that feels so untenable to you because you want everything to be aligned again, it'll probably be harder to do polyamory.

Carrie Jeroslow: 31:32

I really appreciate this conversation because, again, with polyamory becoming very in people's faces more than ever before, that it can seem like oh, that just is great, I get to have my cake and eat it too. This is so great. What I think that both of us are saying, and you've put into such eloquent words, is that it is about going through discomfort. There is uncertainty, there is grieving, there is newness, things that are feel different, this evolutionary change that happens. These are all things that may feel uncomfortable, but also the people that go in it, I think, find so much fulfillment from it, from facing it and moving through it. And I think it's important to note that because you should know what you're getting into as much as you can from an intellectual, because you can't ever know right until you're in it.

Libby Sinback: 32:35

Right, right, right, right, no, yeah, but I agree with you. I think we were writing the press release for polyamory. If we were taking out ads for polyamory, we would need to put a lot of disclaimers in there, and these would be the disclaimers. That being said, as you were saying that, what I felt called to say is let's not forget about having a clear what am I getting out of this? What's my big? Why I get that for some people and again I'm one of them, so I reign this back a lot when I'm talking to other people, because I know that not everybody is like me, where they're just like oh yeah, I love discomfort. Let's do it, you know, because I also recognize that even in myself, like that quality can burn me out actually, so I have to watch it. But that's not everybody. Not everybody is that runs head first into discomfort. But I also just wanted to name that, even if you're not like that, it's useful to have something that does make it really worth it to you like, really worth it to you.

Libby Sinback: 33:45

And for so many people it's their values, right? That polyamory, loving multiple people. And it's not even about I need multiple partners. It's more, being open to connection however it shows up, and not trying to control it or shape. It is so rooted in my value system because love is so important to me and I wanna let it flow and I wanna be in the act of creation and the artistic beauty of that, rather than boxing it all up, and so I guess I wanted to leave the conversation about what do we need to do this well, is a really strong. What are you going for? What is your why? And hopefully it's something expansive and beautiful, rather than I'm just gonna tolerate and put up with all this pain to like make my partner happy or to reach some ideal that other people are expecting of me, because I do see that sometimes, even with people who want polyamory, they're trying to do it perfect and follow all the quote unquote rules and not really leaning into their own happiness and joy and cause. This is about love.

Carrie Jeroslow: 34:53

Well, that's what I was gonna bring it back to is when we started in the beginning. Love is why we're here and it's how we heal it is. That is what it is about is the love and however that shows up with you in your unique life. Love shows up for me in those heart to heart connections, which is why I so appreciate the connection with you, libby, and I'm so thankful that you came and shared your wisdom and experience with us here.

Carrie Jeroslow: 35:27

This will probably be put into two different parts because, it's great, though, and I've learned so much, and thank you for all the work that you do and the world and all the help that you bring to people navigating this, so that there's more information, more resources to do this differently than maybe people 20 years ago did with no resources. There's more support. So if you are feeling called to explore polyamory, explore alternative relationships, please check out Libby's podcast and please go check out working with her too. I know you have a really long waiting list, but you do have some group programs that you're launching. I know you just launched one, but you have others coming up in this year.

Libby Sinback: 36:16

So, yep, yep, I have the foundations of open relating that I will be doing another round of it in June and it's a beautiful 16 week program where we're coaching together, we're learning together and we're digging into some of the underlying skills that you really need to be able to do the things that Carrie and I talked about, and it's just a beautiful program and I love all the people who show up there so much.

Carrie Jeroslow: 36:43

Oh. I'm sure it's amazing, and then also built into that is community of people exploring similar things, and that in and of itself, I'm sure, is really helpful for people navigating a new path. So, libby, oh my goodness, well, thank you.

Libby Sinback: 37:00

I love you, Carrie. Thank you for having me.

Carrie Jeroslow: 37:05

Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity podcast. Wanna learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel, where I'll give you even more free resources and information, all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes. Stay curious. Every relationship is as unique as you are.