Anxious Attachment and People-Pleasing in Non-Monogamous Relationships with Paige Bond

Episode 075
Anxious Attachment and People Pleasing in Non-Monogamous Relationships with Paige Bond

Ever been in a relationship where you felt like your needs were swallowed by the need to please your partner? This episode welcomes licensed marriage and family therapist, Paige Bond and her insights into the complexity of non-monogamous relationships. Bond blends personal experience with professional expertise, embarking on an exploration of attachment styles, jealousy, and the art of open communication.

Paige shares her personal encounters with different relationship structures and how she navigated her own bouts of jealousy and the impulse to people-please. She then gives us key insights into the root causes of anxious attachment styles and the role of empathy in relationship success.

In the final segment of our discussion, Paige offers advice on managing jealousy and overcoming people-pleasing tendencies with her 5 "C" method.  These are invaluable tips for anyone in any relationship structure, and especially helpful for those in ethically non-monogamous ones.

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Transcript

Paige Bond: 0:00

Under the umbrella of insecure attachment. We have people who tend to be avoided and then we have people who tend to be anxious. People pleasers tend to be anxious. They can have issues obsessing about the relationship, like obsessive worry about the relationship ending, worried they'll be abandoned or left. Usually that's borne out of a lot of inconsistency from parents where things weren't stable, so maybe one day the parent was emotionally or physically available and then all of a sudden they were and so they didn't know what to depend on. And so now they have this kind of scarcity of mindset of I gotta soak you in like a sponge and do whatever I can to make you stay in my space. And that's where the people pleasing comes in.

Carrie Jeroslow: 0:45

Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from s to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Ca Jarislow. Bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 1:44

Today I'll be talking with Paige Bond about how people pleasing specifically shows up in non-monogamous relationships and what kinds of new challenges can come up for people pleasers who practice the structure. But first a little about her. Paige Bond hosts the stubborn love podcast and is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a polyamory relationship coach. Her mission is to help people pleasing millennials navigate non-monogamy so they contain their jealousy and love with ease. Her own journey from feeling lonely, insecure and jealous to feeling empowered and reassured through her journey is what fuels her passion to help other people pleasers to conquer jealousy and embrace love. Let's get into the conversation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 2:34

Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I'm so excited for this. Guest Paige Bond is here, and here's what I love about this, because I kind of feel like I'm doing a little full circle here. Way back when I started these conversations, I did an episode about people pleasing, because I think I am a somewhat recovered people pleaser, but I kind of go in and out of it. I'm not fully healed. I really like people around me be happy. But here's the shift that we're going to do, or the addition that we're going to do in this episode is talk about people pleasing specifically with non-monogamy dynamics and how that plays in. So I'm super excited, paige, thank you so much for being here.

Paige Bond: 3:23

Thank you so much for that lovely intro, Carrie. I'm so excited to talk about this today. It's one of my top favorite things to just blab about all the time.

Carrie Jeroslow: 3:33

Well, I am sure there are a lot of people who are ready for this conversation, and I always like to start by learning a little bit more about you because, like I say, there's always a story as to why we have such passion in certain areas that we work with and teach. So can you tell us your S t?

Paige Bond: 3:54

Yeah, it's a long one, but I'll try to make it short for everybody listening. So originally I started out as a therapist. How I became a therapist is I knew since I was a preteen, when I saw my parents get divorced, that it was really interesting to see a relationship that I saw as something like wow, that shouldn't even have ever happened. I'm confused why this happened, how they got connected, and so how did my head? What is it that makes love last? Why do couples stay together? Why do they get separated? And so all the way back then you can imagine I'm just soaking in like a sponge everything about relationships and wanting to learn how to have the best relationship possible. So that starts my journey to becoming a couples therapist.

Paige Bond: 4:45

I go to grad school, I get my degree, I get licensed, and this wasn't really touched on so much in grad school, but I actually had on my profiles of getting clients I would put that I'm sex positive. Any relationship styles are welcome, and all of a sudden, my first few clients when I started my practice were part of the non-monogamy community, and it was really interesting. I was like, oh, there's something going on here, there's something in the water. And this is not only really interesting that they really don't have that many places to be able to talk about this with, because it doesn't feel like there is a safe place for them. I myself needed to brush up on a lot of education on different relationship styles and structures because I grew up in a very conservative type of structured home where monogamy was the norm. Heteronormativity was really all that was allowed. I myself had to do a lot of diving into professionally what could be all the options out there for these just different desires.

Paige Bond: 5:58

Once that happened in my own relationship, once I started specializing in this, I had a partner come to me and say, hey, I think I might be polyamorous, and my heart dropped to the floor and I'm like I know I do this professionally. I work with people like this every day. I'm a very sexually explorative person myself and I find a lot of things exciting. But to actually put it to the test instead of only in fantasy, where that place is really exciting, I don't know it makes me really nervous. So it was quite a journey trying to have those conversations in making sure that we would set up boundaries for both of us and my jealousy was getting in the way. He would get unhappy and say I'll forget it, we'll just not end up doing it. Then it would roll around again where he expressed his desire to start opening the relationship, and so we would talk again. I would express what boundaries that I would want, and then I would get some pushback on that. So I was like, okay, you know what, nevermind, we'll do what.

Paige Bond: 7:06

So I myself was struggling, with a lot of people pleasing and jealousy, in trying to navigate that dynamic, and I was in therapy with my therapist at the time and while she wasn't a specialist in that, she did a lot of help walking me through, helping me find my own values and what kind of relationship I wanted. But it wasn't specific to exactly what I needed, because non-monogamy is just a bit different, of an extra layer of stuff that we have to think about, that we don't think about in other types of monogamous relationships. So this was really borne out of my own journey, of my own suffering. To make sure that other people don't suffer, whether they find on that journey that monogamy is really more for them or it's a different type of non-monogamy for them. I just wanna help them find the relationship that they want, which is why I love your mission so much, carrie, and I'm glad we connected.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:04

Yes, thank you. I feel very aligned with your work as well, and so can you continue the story, because I'm curious as to how you navigated through that, and I do believe that there is something about teaching it intellectually and even empathically, because I'm an empath, but then adding your own experience, you get a lot more perspective.

Paige Bond: 8:30

Yes, so much more perspective Navigating that. Personally, what came to happen is we couldn't necessarily agree on exact boundaries. The relationship actually ended for other reasons, but came to find out that he did go against boundaries that we had set up in our monogamous agreement, and so that was a hurt that kind of stuck with me after, even though we were trying to navigate a non monogamous dynamic. That wasn't an agreement that we both had even brought up or talked to of. Hey, this would be the next step, and so after that ended, I was single and boy. I had a great time and got to explore on my own terms different ideas of relationship styles from different experiences in testing the waters about my own sexuality in different structures, and that was a lot of fun for me to explore. See what I like, see what I don't like, see what is more of a desire for me, see what belongs in fantasy land, see what belongs in what relationship I want.

Carrie Jeroslow: 9:40

I love the distinction between desire and fantasy. Yeah, because a lot of times there's these fantasies is like, oh, that would be really hot. But then you get into that situation and you're like, oh wow, that was nothing like what I thought, so I'm just gonna keep that in fantasy world.

Paige Bond: 10:01

Yeah, I navigated openly while dating. I was letting people know hey, I'm not only seeing one person at a time, I'm balancing multiple different types of relationships, and that worked great for me as identifying as a single person. But when it came to find out for one of the main people that I was seeing the most, who more had an emotional connection with what I realized is they actually struggled a lot when I would have experiences. So then, instead of me being on the side of the jealousy and going through that kind of pain and hurt, I saw the other person doing that and I noticed even that pull. When I saw that happen, my people pleasing tendency started to come up and say, oh no, it's okay, we don't have to do whatever. And so that tendency to just make other people feel better or to just do what's against really what's best for you is so strong in people pleasing.

Carrie Jeroslow: 11:09

Yeah, so how do you start to work with someone who is a people pleaser? Well, let's start first with what do you find are similarities in terms of their past that creates people pleasing or a people pleaser?

Paige Bond: 11:27

So I find what can be a really common thing that I see is that people who tend to lay more on the side of people pleasing had a reason for doing it in either a past relationship or in their relationships growing up, in their childhood, so with their parents or grandparents, caregivers, whoever raised them.

Paige Bond: 11:51

So I like to do a lot of education about attachment styles. I was trained in emotionally focused therapy as a therapist, so that's where a lot of my work comes from. And if you look into secure attachment and insecure attachment, and under the umbrella of insecure attachment we have people who tend to be avoidant and then we have people who tend to be anxious, and I see that the people pleasers tend to be anxious. Now what happens in that is they can have issues obsessing about the relationship, like obsessive worry about the relationship ending, worried they'll be abandoned or left. Usually that's born out of a lot of inconsistency from parents where things weren't stable, so maybe one day the parent was emotionally or physically available and then all of a sudden they weren't and so they didn't know what to depend on, and so now they have this kind of scarcity of mindset of I got to soak you in like a sponge and do whatever I can to make you stay in my space, and that's where the people pleasing comes in.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:57

That's really huge for people in non-monogamous relationships, because it's like they're faced with that possibility all the time, unless it's reconciled within. So how do you help someone who has an anxious attachment feel good about a non-monogamous experience?

Paige Bond: 13:19

It's difficult. In a lot of times what can happen is they themselves aren't sure if non-monogamy is something they want to even go for. Sometimes they might be doing the people pleasing and engaging in non-monogamy to keep the relationship because, again, they're afraid of being left, they're afraid of the relationship ending. So they're doing everything in their power to keep the relationship going, which might mean doing or trying a relationship style that they might not even want to do. Now, that's not a general statement that I want to say to everybody engaging in non-monogamy or everyone with an anxious attachment style, but this is what I've seen come up in my work with the majority of my clients. So I think first, really to not even get to the part of non-monogamy. It's getting to the part of okay, how can we find you security within yourself and within your main partner right now, before we even graduate to working on what kind of relationship structure we can focus on, we do a lot of education about attachment styles. We review together their history and what's formulated their ideas about the world and how they really struggle the most and what ways they need to connect the most to both themselves and their partner. Once we really get an idea of that. We work on having them communicate with empathy, being a lot more open, because, again, people pleasers tend to not be as open with their feelings or desires. To make sure that, oh no, I want the other person to feel good and forget about all my stuff. No, we don't want that. We want everyone to talk about their desires, needs and feelings Once we get to a place of being able to communicate.

Paige Bond: 15:02

Another big part in the people pleasing an anxious realm is that they struggle with a concept called differentiation. Differentiation is really the aspect of being able to separate yourself from the other person so that you can recognize your own thoughts, feelings, needs, etc. And not conjoint them with someone else's. Being able to take in and listen to a different perspective that's not your own, that might be difficult to hear and hold in there. Keep standing up on the ground, not falling to pieces hearing something else. Because if you think about the first conversation that a lot of couples may face of trying to bring up nonmonogamy, someone who might be a people pleaser and struggling with anxious, insecure attachment may not be able to take in what they're listening from the person their partner bringing up nonmonogamy because they're struggling so much with their own insecure attachment, and that's what we want to do. We want to separate that and make sure they have the ability to listen to their partner. So that's another big part of it.

Carrie Jeroslow: 16:12

That's huge. Because, yes, if you're looking through the lens of I, underneath everything feel not good enough and that if their partner brings up nonmonogamy, most likely the instant connection is what am I not that my partner needs? And I know because I experience it, clients experience it, friends, family. When you're in, when you're in that place of oh it's me, you close off your ears, you can't even hear a different perspective. So that idea of differentiation is really valuable.

Paige Bond: 16:47

Yes, so we work a lot on really helping the person struggling with that. People please and come back to themselves because at some point they lost themselves and merged into their partner's relationship, rather than keeping part of themselves, loving that part of themselves and still being able to be connected with their partner, but able to be individual and together. People who struggle with that more anxious attachment and people please, just melt together like butter on their partner.

Carrie Jeroslow: 17:18

And that anxious attachment seems to me to be very intrinsically linked with jealousy, because jealousy, I think, is a normal human emotion. But I also look at jealousy as a surface emotion, that there's so much invaluable information underneath jealousy that is ripe for healing. But the jealousy is like nope, not going there because I'm jealous, and it just stops there. Do you find?

Paige Bond: 17:47

that, yes, so much, and I'm glad you brought this up because I'll give you an example. That even happened last night, because even me, as an expert in jealousy, comes up. It's just like there's not a jealousy gene, where some people get to experience it and some people don't. And so what I've learned by working a lot and doing a lot of research with jealousy is it's better to lean in and acknowledge it than to not. So I'll tell you the story. My partner was telling me about a dream or something that he had, and there was a point in the story where he said something about like oh, I just, I really wanted to be with you, and in the dream he was with someone else, about trying to get to me, and I was confused by that. I was like, oh so does that mean you want to be with the other person? Look how fast our brain switches.

Carrie Jeroslow: 18:38

There you went right. You didn't hear no, but I wanted to be with you. That's exactly what we do. That's what our minds do.

Paige Bond: 18:46

Yes, yes. And so he's like is someone jealous about my dream? And a natural people pleaser who hasn't done the work, who doesn't have the skills, would say, oh no, I'm not jealous. And they would do a lot of avoidance and kind of this dance with that and try to be the tough person who doesn't get jealous, who is the perfect partner, who just gives you everything you need. That just doesn't happen, and so I was like, yes, sweetheart, I am. I need a little reassurance and that's what it is. It's really. The journey is about finding your own self and being able to give that a voice and let that out and talk to your partner about your needs so you actually can feel more connected.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:32

Exactly, it creates more emotional intimacy with your partner.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:38

And so my parents got divorced and I would go into my room, disconnect from everything, go listen to music.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:45

That is how I dealt with a lot of discomfort discomfort with my own feelings or with the situation, circumstance I would disconnect, and this has been really up for me over the last I would say even six months, where I really had to stop, now that I'm aware that's what I do and exactly what you say lean in to the feelings, jealousy or whatever else and then give voice to it in a way that is inviting my partner in. I'm still working on this too, but I notice that, if I can lean into it and have the courage to connect instead of disconnect and do my own internal processing, that, my relationships are getting stronger, even with my kids, with my partners, with my brothers. I had something that I was just feeling with my brother and, instead of disconnecting, I pushed myself to connect and communicate, and it is incredible the difference that is coming forth with this practice of mine. We're feeling closer, I'm feeling just more aligned, more on the same team. It's a really beautiful scary at first, and now it's even getting easier.

Paige Bond: 21:03

Yeah, it does get easier If I were in a different relationship that I'm in right now and they were to come up in the same scenario with a dream and say, are you getting jealous, paige? And I'd be like no, and try to avoid it or try to switch the subject or do something more of leaning into that more insecure way of coping rather than addressing it head-on, being honest and open with my partner, seeking comfort because I know it'll comfort me, because that's what we do in our relationship for a team and it's a win-win situation. We both win.

Carrie Jeroslow: 21:38

Moving past that discomfort, I think, is where a coach or a therapist can really help, because it's a nervous system response. So if I feel that I don't wanna lean into discomfort, I'm trying to keep myself safe, and these are the ways that I learned growing up, unconsciously, to keep me safe, so why would I ever try something different? That's terrifying. This is why I love the idea of connecting with someone like Paige To help guide you to move into the thing that's scary and push past that real moment of discomfort, because I think on the other side is everything that you ever want, whether it's with that person or someone else. It's like pushing through that discomfort.

Paige Bond: 22:27

Yes, that's so beautiful.

Carrie Jeroslow: 22:29

One of the things I'd love to ask you about, because I am fascinated with generations and generational differences. Let me talk about it a lot, because it is just so interesting to look at. Now I'm a Gen Xer and I grew up in just a very different world than what I see my kids growing up Gen Zers and Gen Alpha's, and then you're a millennial right Yep millennial.

Carrie Jeroslow: 22:55

And that's another thing is that you catered towards millennials. I would love to learn more from your perspective what it was like in your generation to grow up, because you grew up in more technology obviously not as much as what the Gen Zers and Gen Alpha's are growing up, but I grew up in like Atari and, oh my gosh, those huge cell phones and, wow, a new computer and the corded phone. It's just a whole different world and good things and not good things. I grew up where people whispered behind different people's backs in terms of, oh, I think that person might be gay. I luckily grew up in theater, so I was around a lot of different sexual identities and it was still very hush hush. So what's it like to be a millennial?

Paige Bond: 23:47

I think you get all of the generations around it smushed into one, so you have the one above and the one upcoming right behind it. When I was growing up, we had access to cell phones. Social media was getting started. I grew up on Myspace, but then Facebook really came boom and I think we all recognized that at one point. And it was this big new thing and it brought a lot of access to a lot of people and I think it brought a lot of access to being able to get in touch with either old flames, new possibilities, whether that was cheating and non-consensual nonmonogamy or consensual nonmonogamy, which is not something that I was familiar with growing up.

Paige Bond: 24:32

I had no idea. I had only the idea that people around me and relationships. If you wanted to be with someone else or you wanted to get your sexual needs met outside of your relationship, it was called cheating, or you had to cheat in order to do that. I had no idea that there could be this beautiful possibility of being honest and open with your partner about your desires, your wants and needs, what that was never put on the table for me at all, and so I myself struggled to understand how to get the relationship that I wanted because I had also struggled with both sides of cheating growing up, throughout different relationships, and I was like one is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with the world? Is there a manual for this thing? How do we figure this out?

Carrie Jeroslow: 25:25

Yeah, I know you cater mainly towards millennials. Do you see that there are relationship challenges that they're coming to you with that might be different than other generations? I don't know how many Gen Zers you're working with, because I guess they're on the younger side, but if you work with any Gen Xers, what are the differences that people are? What are the challenges? What has growing up with social media brought forth in personal challenges?

Paige Bond: 25:56

Every relationship is so unique and different, it's so interesting. But I think what I can notice for the older than millennial generation is that jealousy actually isn't so much of a problem as often, I think because they didn't grow up on as much of that technology and rely on that validation from the technology, the likes, the, whatever it was. They found that validation elsewhere or within themselves. Yay them. And I think millennials struggle with that more. Actually, this is the generation that grew up on social media. This is the generation that saw social media as this way to be able to feed their own internal journey of feeling good about themselves. So I think a lot of times the younger generation and probably I don't work with Gen X, but I imagine they also struggle with a lot of jealousy in comparison struggles too.

Carrie Jeroslow: 26:57

Yeah, that's definitely a part of my challenges with nonmonogamy. What I find with some of the millennials, like my niece and nephews and then my kids, is there seems to be a lot more fluidity in terms of sexual identity. I don't know that it's showing up so much in relationship structure identity, because I think it's just newer, but it just seems like there's so much fluidity. It's one day I like this girl and one day I like this boy and one day I like this person, and it doesn't really matter, I just like that person. Do you find that?

Paige Bond: 27:35

Yeah, yeah, I am, and it's interesting that you say that, and I don't know if this is about a generational thing where, growing up in different cultures, they shame different aspects of sexuality, right, so maybe they don't have the opportunity to explore, and so what I find is that maybe a little bit above millennial and up will more so focus on the sexual aspects and usually still leaning on the hetero norm, whereas millennials and a little bit younger they focus on all aspects of sexuality and so are a little bit more free and excited to be curious and find out what exactly they're looking for, instead of stick to the box that they grew up in.

Carrie Jeroslow: 28:22

Yeah, I'm thankful for that because my parents were boomers and there were definitely lots of boxes and I had really cool parents. But there were definitely the way things were and if it didn't fit in that box then either it was hidden or not talked about. So I appreciate the fluidity that I'm hoping generations after me and you will be moving towards.

Paige Bond: 28:51

And I'll say, before we move on from that, another little anecdote of my own. I think another draw to non-monogamy at least for me was to explore my own fantasies about different genders and such like that. So I had struggled with. It's weird. I like to watch this kind of thing, I get turned on by it, but I'm not sure if I want to do it. I haven't kissed a girl before. I don't know if I'm interested. I find them objectively attractive, but I don't know if it's a sexual attraction. I'm so confused and I'm like having this conversation with my therapist and she's like Paige, you don't have to label it, just see what you like and enjoy the experience. And so that was all the permission I needed to explore my sexuality.

Carrie Jeroslow: 29:37

Paige. I love that because I do think generationally, people are moving away from needing to be labeled. The label creates. What I find is the community, the people that, okay, they get me. But other than that, there are people who are saying I'm just myself, I'm just going to be myself.

Carrie Jeroslow: 29:57

And this is what I love about relationship diversity and the way that I talk about it is that you are unique. There is no one else like you, and then you join with someone else who's unique if you choose, or maybe another person, and you're creating this whole unique relationship. So, giving people the permission, just like you say, and the freedom to design it. What would be my perfect relationship? What would that look like? What would my perfect expression of my sexuality look like? And I'm hoping that's where the relationship diversity movement is going to be going. It's just busting open the boxes, bringing in the labels when needed to find community and support, but then letting it go to create my most fulfilling relationship.

Carrie Jeroslow: 30:46

So I want to now go back to jealousy, but move towards your work, because you have a program that you work one-on-one with people about this jealousy, moving from jealousy to joy, because jealousy, I think, or that emotion and everything that's under it is a practice. It's a practice because we can say like, oh, I'm not jealous anymore, I work through that, but then something will come up and just, oh, that one got me. I wasn't expecting it, but I feel that thing in my gut that tells me I would label it as jealousy. So this program that you help lead people from jealousy to joy, tell us a little bit about that.

Paige Bond: 31:31

It's a beautiful process where I really help people go on a journey and we have five different destinations in mind. So we're not only working on jealousy. Jealousy is the main thing you're experiencing and why you're coming to me, but there's everything else going on that we need to work on that jealousy. So you're really getting like a five-in-one deal when working through the Jealousy to Joy framework. So I have the five C's for Jealousy to Joy. The first one is called consideration.

Paige Bond: 32:03

This is where we do a whole big review and consider everything in your life up till now that is contributing to these feelings that you're feeling. So, like I said, I talk about attachment style. We talk about people pleasing, we talk about jealousy and we talk about historical experiences that have happened in your life that have really shaped your view. Because, for instance, some people who engage in nonmonotomy are like, yeah, I just don't get jealous, and I would say to that there's likely very different experiences how jealousy was framed for them growing up in their own family and their culture and their society than the person who was struggling with the jealousy and insecurity. So we do a whole big review on learning about attachment, how that plays a role, trying to see if you can identify also your partner's attachment from working with a couple. We do it together and we do a lot of openly sharing about really our deepest insecurities and it can be really scary but it's the hard work that really needs to be done to move that transformation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 33:12

What kind of transformations do you see from your program?

Paige Bond: 33:16

I see people just being more in line with themselves, being joyful I'm going to try to not use the word that's within the framework but really just being so authentic to who they are. They're able to live life in a different way. They don't have that heavy weight on their chest. They don't have that gut punch of jealousy in their stomach just nagging at them. They don't have the obsessive thoughts in their head anymore. They're doing what they want to do, engaging in hobbies that they like, engaging in the relationships like they want to. They're having conversations with their partner that they probably haven't ever talked like before.

Paige Bond: 33:56

I would notice, even in my time being a couples therapist, there's a lot of couples that don't have these kind of serious conversations that we should have had before we got married. And so in my program we have these hard conversations. We talk about what kind of relationship structure is your ideal relationship structure? Okay, so that's your ideal. Where did you get that belief from? Okay, so you got that belief from this experience growing up or this experience right now? Is that a belief you want to keep or would you be open to changing that? Is that something you want to change? So we do a lot of work about their mindset around this, because if you're bringing someone in and trying to introduce them to non-monogamy and all they've learned was heteromono norm relationships, they're going to have a really difficult time trying to adjust to something like that because that's not ever been on their horizon Definitely.

Carrie Jeroslow: 34:50

So a lot of education, and I know we didn't get to all the Cs. Do you want to just list them so we know the framework?

Paige Bond: 34:58

Yeah. So that first one was consideration. Then we go into compassion, so I'll do a brief thing about that. Instead of compassion for others, which people-pleasers are so good at, they learn how to do it for themselves. So we do a lot of education and activities based on that to help them become more compassionate internally. They learn how to comfort and soothe themselves and rely on their partner for that soothing.

Paige Bond: 35:24

So that's the third C is comfort. Then we have communication. We need to really work on being able to one with that differentiation, be able to hear some difficult, maybe differing opinion feelings than we have from our own view, and being able to communicate our own needs and wishes, et cetera. So we work on communication in that fourth C. And then the final one, which is, I think, of celebrations and balloons when I think of it is compersion. And if your audience doesn't know, compersion is really where we get to experience joy for our partner, having joy from a source other than us as a partner, and it's a really beautiful thing to experience that and that is really the beauty in polyamory and other types of nonmonogamy. Is that compersion aspect that is really the antidote to jealousy. So by the end of the program we're going to be on the way.

Carrie Jeroslow: 36:21

And I think to get to compersion is about feeling secure within yourself and moving towards more of a secure attachment with your partner. And I also want to say because I had Marie Tuen on here who's done a lot of research with compersion that compersion and jealousy can coexist is what she said, which I agree. I've had that experience. I feel both compersion and jealousy at the same time. What I want to say about your work is that I love this idea of jealousy to joy, because a lot of people, when they hear about nonmonogamy, I hear all the time I could never do that, I'd be too jealous. And while that might be the truth for that person, it also might not.

Carrie Jeroslow: 37:11

And if there is a way to explore jealousy and all the other things that are tied to it and really get down to the bottom of it, whether that person decides to go in a non-traditional relationship or not, that work will help in every relationship. Because people, if they have jealousy because of unresolved wounds, they're going to feel jealous with their coworker, they're going to feel jealous of their kids, they're going to feel jealous of their friends. There will be jealousy. So I think that's just such important work. So I want to just put it out to anyone listening who's really dealing with jealousy and if you are a people pleaser or, if not, if jealousy is the thing that is keeping you stuck from experiencing a life that is fulfilling, a life of stepping into that joyful vision and dream that you have in your head, reach out to Page. Reach out to Page because I can tell you're amazing at what you do and I'm very curious can you tell people how they can get in touch with you?

Paige Bond: 38:21

Oh yes, thank you so much for everything you said, because it just lights me up to hear even how excited you are just hearing snippet about my work. So if anyone wants to get in touch with me, they can go on my website. I'm at pagebondcom and that's like 007. So pagebonddotcom, nice. And then I also have my other podcast that you'll be on soon, so that's called Stubborn Love, and you'll hear Carrie's episode on there here in Not Too Much Time.

Carrie Jeroslow: 38:53

Yay. What's the premise of Stubborn Love?

Paige Bond: 38:58

The premise of Stubborn Love is really just focusing on episodes that give either actionable tips and advice to help you in your relationship or just really touch on topics that aren't talked about very often. So to give people some validation or normalization on issues they may be going through that are affecting their relationship, that other people aren't really talking about around them.

Carrie Jeroslow: 39:25

Mm important stuff, so I'm going to link your website and your podcast in the show notes. Everyone please go check out page. Thank you so much for being a part of this podcast and I can't wait to come beyond yours.

Paige Bond: 39:41

Thank you, Carrie.

Carrie Jeroslow: 39:44

Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast. Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastdotcom to get your sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my website, carriejeroslowdotcom, instagram or TikTok. Stay curious.

Carrie Jeroslow: 40:40

Every relationship is as unique as you are. Are you wondering why you never seem to find lasting fulfillment in your relationships? Or do you create the same kinds of relationship experiences over and over again? Can you never seem to find even one person who you want to explore a relationship with? Have you just given up hope altogether? If this sounds like you, my recent book why Do they Always Break Up With Me is the perfect place to start. The foundation of any relationship, whether intimate or not, is the relationship we have with ourselves. In the book, I lead you through eight clear steps to start or continue your self-exploration journey. You'll learn about the importance of self-acceptance, gratitude, belief shifting and forgiveness, and given exercises to experience these life-changing concepts. This is the process I use to shift my relationships from continual heartbreak to what they are now fulfilling, soul-nourishing, compassionate and loving. It is possible for you. This book can set you on a path to get there, currently available through Amazon or through the link in the show notes.