An Open Conversation about Swinging with Jo Leavitt

Episode 061:
An Open Conversation about Swinging with Jo Leavitt

Ever wondered about the swinging lifestyle? Together with Lifestyle and Confidence Coach Jo Leavitt, we share a no-holds-barred discussion on this often misunderstood world. With Jo bringing her 17 years of personal experience and her expertise as the host of the Confidence Swinger Podcast, we shed light on the myths and misconceptions, and highlight the pillars of communication, trust, and respect in this lifestyle.

Our conversation doesn't stop at swinging but expands to the broader topic of non-monogamy. We explore ways to introduce the subject into a relationship and finding like-minded communities. Hear Jo's personal journey with her husband into this lifestyle, the changes they've gone through, and how she uses her experiences to help others navigate this path. This is a rare chance to listen to an open and honest discussion on a topic that's often kept in the shadows.

You can find her at Home | The Confident Swinger
Email her at jo@theconfidentswinger.com | Facebook

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The Confident Swinger | Build Your Confidence & Embrace Your Badassery | Patreon

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Transcript

Carrie Jeroslow: 0:03

Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from solaramary to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, Ca Jarislow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 1:03

Today I'll be talking with Jo Leavitt all about swinging, what it is, what makes it work and what are the challenges and common myths about the lifestyle. But first a little about her. Joe is a lifestyle and confidence coach. She helps people build their confidence and embrace their bad assery, especially, but not exclusively, swingers. She's also the host of the Confidence Swinger Podcast. Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I've got a great guest for you and I am so super excited about this topic because, although I know about it on an intellectual way. I have never experienced it, so I am going to be learning right along with you. We have got Joe Levitt here who is going to talk all about swinging. We are going to learn together. Welcome, j, to the podcast.

Jo Leavitt: 2:09

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. It's definitely a topic that I love, so I'm excited to educate your audience about it.

Carrie Jeroslow: 2:17

Yes, because with any kind of relationship structure, the less we know, the more assumptions we make. Education is so important and learning about other people's experiences helps to open our mind, to have more compassion, empathy and possibly interest.

Jo Leavitt: 2:37

Absolutely. Yeah, there's so many stigmas and it really just boils down, like you said, to a lack of education, because you're going to be a little bit afraid of the things that you don't know about and so you're going to make those assumptions and most of the time those are going to be wrong. I think this is great to be able to change those perceptions and to get rid of that negative stigma that swinging has.

Carrie Jeroslow: 3:04

Yes, yes, we're going to tackle all these things. I always love to start and learn about how people, how you, got into doing this, coaching people in this way, about swinging. There's always a story and I'd love to hear your story.

Jo Leavitt: 3:26

There always is. I am 46, I'm married and I've been with my husband for 18 years. We've been married nine. We've been together 18, and we've actually been swinging together for 17 of those. We got into the lifestyle because I had always had some bicuriosity in myself. I'd always had that little voice in the back of my head that always wondered, but I had never felt secure enough in any relationship, or even in myself in any relationship, to openly admit it to myself or to openly admit it to anybody else. I went through some shitty relationships when I was young, but it changed when I got with my husband, with my now husband, because he just created this safe space for me.

Jo Leavitt: 4:22

I like to say that he's created home for me and that's just it's such a gift that he's given it, really allowed me the freedom and the safety to explore, to even admit it to myself and then admit it to him. He took it so well and I said I really think that this is a thing, I really think that I have some bicuriosity, I think I'm attracted to women. He said, well then, let's explore that. He actually found some swinger websites, that it's very similar to dating websites and you create a profile. We got started that way and it's been an amazing journey. It's shifted and our dynamics have shifted and our experiences have changed. Obviously, I'm definitely bisexual and I still predominantly play with women. That's still my focus but it has shifted a little bit and it's opened us up to new possibilities of things A few years ago. So that's kind of how we got started in swinging.

Carrie Jeroslow: 5:41

That was 17 years ago. You said 17 years ago. What was that? 2005? No, wait, yeah, 2004?.

Jo Leavitt: 5:52

Something like that, something like that. Okay, so that was a while ago. It's been a while. It's been amazing. Well, so a few years ago I sort of went through that.

Jo Leavitt: 6:09

My husband called it a midlife crisis. I called it like that spiritual awakening, really, where I got to that point where I was, I felt like I had so many gifts to offer the world that were not being fully utilized. And you know, I had been in my job for a long time and I enjoyed it, but it didn't feed my soul, like it wasn't what I was put on this earth to do. And so I went through a lot of personal development, a lot of reflection, and ultimately it led me to coaching and that was just the perfect fit. But at that point I still didn't know who my audience was. I didn't know what that looked like. At first I actually thought it was career coaching and that just didn't, it didn't click with me. And my husband actually made like an offhand comment about coaching swingers and I was like, of course, like yes, obviously. And so the confident swinger was born and it's been. I've been in my business just under a year Now. I've been certified just under a year, and it's been such an incredible journey.

Carrie Jeroslow: 7:20

Yeah, because now, having gone through your own journey, you have an idea of what other people who you know have those curiosities, whether it is about you know their sexuality, or about the relationship structure and the fear of being on the side of the terror and the unknown wanting to go to the other side. So that's, I'm sure that you're very helpful with your clients after having gone, traveled that path yourself.

Jo Leavitt: 7:53

Right, yeah, absolutely, and I've been in this lifestyle a long time and I've seen a lot and I've learned a lot and I've grown, not only through my own experiences but also observing other people's dynamics, because obviously our dynamic works for us, it's what we like. But that doesn't mean that I don't have experience with all of these other dynamics that are in the lifestyle, and you know, I have a lot of close friends that have very different dynamics than I do and I've seen their journeys as well, and so which is also kind of helpful a little bit seeing those things from the outside, because sometimes it's hard to see them from the inside, when you're experiencing them.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:37

Right, right, and I love that you kind of put on, you know, your observer hat and watch all of that, because it's very much what I talk about in relationship diversity. You are your own unique person plus another unique person equals a unique relationship and how it shows up in the world.

Jo Leavitt: 8:56

Absolutely yeah. And then when you well, you know, when you bring other people into that it can create this, just this beautiful tapestry, but it definitely does bring its own challenges.

Carrie Jeroslow: 9:11

Oh yeah, as we both smile. You can't see us, but we're both going.

Jo Leavitt: 9:16

Oh yes, it's my smile and you know, that was one of the reasons why I felt so drawn to coach in the lifestyle. To coach other swingers is because it definitely presents its own unique set of challenges. And you, because that stigma is still there, because that taboo is still there. People sometimes feel very alone in that they don't feel like there's anybody that they can reach out to, because they don't necessarily need counseling, they don't need therapy, they just need somebody to understand and to help them through the issues that they're going through, and that is the magic of a coach.

Carrie Jeroslow: 9:53

Yes, yes, Because I think you know many people feel very alone when they start to explore these kinds of things and even knowing, oh, someone else knows, kind of what I'm going through is really helpful. I want to go back to just so because everyone may not know how would you define swinging?

Jo Leavitt: 10:21

So my definition of swinging is when someone is willing to open their relationship up to other sexual partners. So that could that could be a whole range of different things and that may not even necessarily be. In my opinion, it may not even necessarily be participating contact wise with other people. It could also include exhibitionism and voyeurism as well. In my opinion, it's a big umbrella. Most people believe that swinging is really when you are having sexual contact with other people outside of your relationship, and there are a lot of different dynamics in that. There's soft swap, which is including sexual contact that does not include penetration, and then there's full swap, which obviously does include that penetration aspect, and there's a lot of different, a lot of room in the middle.

Carrie Jeroslow: 11:22

Right, there's a lot of nuances in scenarios. Can you maybe give us a few other scenarios of how swinging could look?

Jo Leavitt: 11:34

Absolutely so there's there's parallel play as well, so that would be you and your partner playing just with each other, but near another partner, but you guys are not actually swapping. That's a really good way for new people to get introduced to it and to to increase their comfort level. And some people play together, some people play separate, they play solo, some people play same room, so they want to be either in the same room or on the same bed. So it's sort of like a big pile and there's pros and cons of that. Some people prefer to play separate, like sometimes it's very distracting for them to see their partner with somebody else, and so they prefer to be in a separate room. Some people prefer same roof. So that means that, as long as they're in the same building and they know that their partner is safe, it creates that safety that they feel comfortable with, and some people just totally play solo. So it's really there's a lot of different ways. There's a lot of different dynamics.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:36

Yeah, lots of different ways that it can show up. And if someone were to come to you and say I'm interested in swinging I've never done it before, is there a pathway? Or do you talk to them about maybe what is a turn on for them and you start there Like how do you navigate? Like starting out?

Jo Leavitt: 13:00

Yeah, absolutely. So. I always tell everybody that the very first thing that you need to work on is like your why. That's the first thing that I work on with all of my clients, regardless, is know your why. You need to understand why this is something that you want, and it needs to be something that you want and not just something that your partner wants, because if it's just something that your partner wants, it is going to cause resentment, it's going to cause problems and it's not going to end well.

Jo Leavitt: 13:28

So my first step is always like know your why, know what you want to get out of this, know what it's going to bring to you personally and know what it's going to bring to your relationship. And then really, yeah, find out what that turn on is. What is it that you like? And for a lot of people, especially if they're just starting out, bring that sexy talk up in the bedroom, make it a fantasy and bring that up and see if it's a turn on for both of you guys. Or you can bring in some porn that's always a good way too or there's a ton of podcasts out there.

Carrie Jeroslow: 14:03

So it's always your podcast, the confidence swing or podcast. Go check it out.

Jo Leavitt: 14:09

Yeah, it's amazing. Not that I'm biased or anything, but it is.

Jo Leavitt: 14:15

Podcasts are actually a great way for you to start conversations where nobody creates this safe space for you to feel comfortable sharing, because it's not either one of you bringing it up, necessarily, it's this third party. So when you're listening to it together you can be like, oh, that's interesting, what do you think about that without somebody having to bring it up? So that's kind of a good way to the next step past. That is really like figure out where your comfort level is and then you have to explore that. So that may mean going to a club or a party or a meet and greet with no expectations other than to just fill it out, just see how you feel, see what the environment feels like, see how you feel and your partner feels. And it's really a good time to not have any expectations about playing that first time. It's really just like a fact.

Jo Leavitt: 15:15

Seeking vision. I tell my clients live with curiosity. So like make your choices and notice all of the things. Like. This is obviously like a lot with my with thought, work and stuff. But even in that kind of a situation, like go into it with curiosity and non-judgment. So you're just going to see what happens and there's no right or wrong. You're just noticing what happens.

Carrie Jeroslow: 15:45

Yeah, we say I sign off every single episode. Stay curious because when we sit in that curiosity, you know. Then we become slightly like, removed from all the judgments and the fears and the stigma, and we stay in this space of openness.

Jo Leavitt: 16:05

Absolutely. Yeah, I tell that with my clients so much too. But a lot of what I work with with my clients is thought work and I said, if you focus on your thoughts with curiosity, then you are sort of removing yourself from them and you don't feel so overwhelmed by the emotions because you're not feeling the emotion so much as you're noticing.

Carrie Jeroslow: 16:27

Right.

Jo Leavitt: 16:28

And it is a great distinction.

Carrie Jeroslow: 16:30

Yes, yes, so helpful. What well? I have two questions and I'm thinking about going in order. So my first question is once someone's decided, okay, we want to go for it, how do people find, because of all the stigma it's so underground, which I hope, with podcasts like yours and mine, we start to bring acceptance into swinging polyamory, et cetera, non-monogamy, but how do people find places to go explore?

Jo Leavitt: 17:08

Right. So, like I mentioned before, when we first got started, we set up a profile on a website, and that is really a great way to get started because you can go in and set up a profile, but all of those sites also are going to list out events that are going to be in your area. So not only are you trying to connect with other people on a one-on-one sort of similar to dating basis, but you're also finding out about the events and the meet and greet so you can go meet people. And there are several sites. Some of them are more popular in some areas than others. I'm in the Midwest and C4P, which is Club Four Play, is very popular in this area and that's the one that we use quite a bit.

Jo Leavitt: 17:58

But there are other websites as well. Sls is one and Cassidy BetLife, although that's more of like BDSM, but there are a lot of sites like that. So I would definitely recommend doing some searching and finding out what those sites are that are going to be popular in your area, and if anybody has a question about that, I sort of in one of my files I have a list of the websites that are more popular in different areas. So any of your listeners that are interested can feel free to email me and I can at least get them started on which of those sites are good for different areas. Because obviously, yeah, it's going to be.

Jo Leavitt: 18:43

You're going to be more successful if there are more events going in your area, and some are more popular than others. And also a great way is Facebook groups. There are Facebook groups everywhere. Facebook groups are amazing because there are groups that pop up all over the world. Really, I'm assuming I haven't searched for ones internationally, but I know there are so many domestically here in the US and if you get involved in those groups, then you're going to be meeting people more locally and you're going to be finding out about events, and that's really a great place to start, because you want to go to those. You want to meet people.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:26

That's kind of how it works. Yeah, if you want to explore it and you want to go past the kind of play fantasy play it would be finding a group or finding a place.

Jo Leavitt: 19:39

Right, you can't play with other people without other people.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:41

Right, right. Well, jo is a great resource, so I'll have her email address down in the show notes for you if you want to connect with her, and I'm sure she'll be able to help you out. So my next question is a common question that I get, so I'm curious what your answer is, and that is let's say, one person wants to explore swinging and the other person in the partnership does not. What then?

Jo Leavitt: 20:12

You know it's funny that you say that.

Jo Leavitt: 20:14

Like I said, we've been swinging in the lifestyle for a long time and it's always been like I've always been leading that because we started with it being my fantasy and it just feels a lot more naturally to me and my husband has always been the more I don't want to say reluctant, but he's always been that person that's not as interested, and we actually did just do a podcast episode together.

Jo Leavitt: 20:43

That was when one partner is more interested in the lifestyle than the other because he is that more reluctant partner. So, really, like with anything, you're different people and you're coming at it with different wants and different needs and different desires. So you really need to be very open and honest about those things, and understanding why you have those wants and those needs and those desires is going to be super important, because there may be other ways to fill those needs that everybody is happy with. So it's super important to just be open and be honest with one another and to really explore all of the possibilities, and it can also be very helpful, if you're in that situation, to have a coach or a mentor or an outside perspective to help you navigate that, because there may be options that neither one of you are seeing, because you're very blinded by your own expectations.

Carrie Jeroslow: 21:49

Right, and we I think I'm saying a collective we want all or nothing. You know, it's like I want it all. And there's you know, there's usually something, and this is why where I think what you talk about of the first thing you do is to help people determine their why, because when you have that why, you can maybe come up with this creative solution. If both people feel heard and safe to come up with this creative solution, that will get you both what you need in a way that you both feel supported and heard.

Jo Leavitt: 22:26

Absolutely, that's so important. And you know, we've I've been guilty of that too, even recently, even now, you know, I've been guilty of having that all or nothing mindset and I'm like, when I get into my feels and I'm like, well, I just can't do this at all, then because you don't want this and so I just can't do this, and then I step back and I'm like, ok, that's just that's my bitchy little brain talking and that's not the reality. So let's reality check that shit and let's come out this a different way.

Carrie Jeroslow: 22:57

Yes, totally, I get in that place too. I think it is really a common and having the awareness that maybe that's what where, like, the default go to is, and then being able to pull back. But also this is why I love the idea of having a coach, specifically in something that is so different from anything you've ever done is that coach will help you find these creative solutions and make sure that each person feels heard and seen and cared for.

Jo Leavitt: 23:28

Absolutely, and what I've found is very common is one person will have that interest and people. One person will have that desire, that curiosity, but they'll be afraid to bring it up to their partner because they don't know how that's going to be received and they're really afraid of hurting their partner. And so they don't want their partner to receive that, as though they're not good enough or that they aren't meeting their needs or that they want somebody else sexually. And that's the huge roadblock for most people having that initial conversation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 24:05

Yes, that is very deeply ingrained cultural, societal beliefs about relationships. Absolutely you have to be my everything or else something's really wrong, and it seems unrealistic that anyone could be that for anyone else.

Jo Leavitt: 24:26

It does. It's sad that we think that and then we get sucked into these insecurities that if I'm not enough, if my partner wants something else, then that must mean that I'm not enough and that means that I'm not worthy. And so sad. And it's not the way. It's not true.

Carrie Jeroslow: 24:48

Right, right. So a lot of the work that you're doing, even preparing someone for this is about their own self-worth and their self-worth and self-love, self-acceptance, all that.

Jo Leavitt: 25:02

All of that. Yeah, I am a lifestyle and confidence coach and the reason for that is because at the base of really getting what you want is that confidence, that self-acceptance piece, that self-love piece, and that's also why it was led to coach in that, using that confidence, that tool, that framework. I don't know exactly what I want to say with that, but that's really at the base of so many issues, is that, not that self-doubt?

Carrie Jeroslow: 25:38

Right, right. It's at the core of a lot of things.

Jo Leavitt: 25:42

It is, it is.

Carrie Jeroslow: 25:44

And I think it's a lifelong practice to find the self-confidence I know after 53 years. It's like there are times when it's high, there are times when it's low, and that's okay, and sometimes it fluctuates within the 24 hours of a day, but it's just a constant thing to travel and to learn about and to stay curious about as well who? So I want to go back to the swinging a little bit and ask you who do you think the swinging lifestyle really serves Like? Who is it really good for other than someone who has a real interest in it?

Jo Leavitt: 26:23

Right, yes, so I will say that you need to be very solid in your relationship. If you have a troubled relationship and you think that swinging is going to solve it, that's like having a baby to fix the marriage.

Carrie Jeroslow: 26:40

Oh yeah.

Jo Leavitt: 26:40

It does not work.

Carrie Jeroslow: 26:42

Yes.

Jo Leavitt: 26:42

It does not work. So you need to have a solid foundation, you need to have trust, you need to have respect those are super important and you need to have good communication.

Jo Leavitt: 26:53

And you may think that you have good communication going into it, but once you start swinging it is going to test you to the limits and it's going to reveal all of those spots. I'm sure you understand this 100%. Yes, it requires so much, so sorry. Let me go back. Sometimes I rabbit hole. So first of all, you need to be solid in your relationship. So if you have a solid relationship and it's just sort of like it's lost its spark, it's lost its excitement a little bit, you kind of feel like it's become mundane a little bit and so you're looking like you already have a good, solid relationship but you're looking to just reignite it, and that's a great.

Jo Leavitt: 27:44

I see a lot of people getting into it like that. We just want to bring back the spark, the passion to our relationship that we feel like we've lost a little bit. Also, people that are really wanting to explore new areas of sexuality men and women or together. That could also be people that are like we've been together for many, many years and we haven't explored other things Sexually and so we want to try new things and we want to try them together, and that's another really good reason why people get involved in the lifestyle or get started in swinging.

Carrie Jeroslow: 28:27

That's so great and, like you said when you were describing all the different ways that swinging could show up, even going to a club together with your partner you know a sex club or a sex dinner party and just observing and maybe getting ideas, you know, maybe feeling turned on and then bringing that back home that it doesn't have to always be. I'm going to be having sex with other people to have it be swinging.

Jo Leavitt: 28:58

Absolutely so much. So many people go into it just because they love to flirt and they like to feel sexy and they like that sexually charged atmosphere and then they want to go home and fuck their partner's brains out. Oh yeah, awesome.

Carrie Jeroslow: 29:13

Yes, yes, and I love broadening it up like that because I think maybe that might allow people who never thought that they could quite open up in that way, that gives them maybe a little bit of opening no pun intended or pun intended to explore just something new for their relationship.

Jo Leavitt: 29:40

Absolutely. And you know, everybody is different and everybody's comfort level is different. And some people get introduced to it and they want to go balls to the wall and they want to dive in head first and that works for them and that's great. And some people need to put their toes in the water. Some people need to baby step into it, and that's great too. It's really whatever makes you feel most comfortable and most accepting of the situation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 30:06

Right and do you also find, because I think this is OK too, specifically maybe in polyamory, which I'm a little bit more versed to than swinging, but that people can go explore and then say you know, I'm glad we did that, but that's not for me, that's not for us, and come back into a closed arrangement?

Jo Leavitt: 30:27

Absolutely. People can go and try that and then say, you know, monogamy is for us Like we are not this. We tried it, we explored it and it just didn't fill the need like we thought that it would and we are good with just being monogamous again, absolutely.

Carrie Jeroslow: 30:45

Right. I love that flow and fluidity because I think that there's a lot of thinking out there that if I go do this, this is how it is going to be forever.

Jo Leavitt: 30:57

And there is a lot of people that take a step back from the lifestyle for various reasons throughout their journey. There have been years when Chad and I have not participated with anybody else. However, we have these amazing friendships in this amazing community that has been created that we would not give up for anything.

Jo Leavitt: 31:18

So, even during those phases when we have not played with anybody else, we've still had that community. We've still had those friendships that we treasure. So we never really felt like we totally stepped out of the lifestyle. But there have definitely been times that we did not participate at all and we were fine with that.

Carrie Jeroslow: 31:41

Right. Right, because there are moments in our life that either circumstantially, we're so busy we just cannot take on another you know commitment or another experience, or emotionally, maybe we're just drained emotionally because of the chapter of life that we're in and being present with the fluidity of life and communicating that will help to, you know, people to stay connected, couples to stay connected, which I know is one way that will make swinging successful for people. What are other ways? What is needed to make the swinging experience successful? And I don't look at successful as like we did it and we're going to do it for the rest of our lives just like a feel good experience. That was a good experience.

Jo Leavitt: 32:34

Right yeah, success is everybody being happy with the situation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 32:38

Right.

Jo Leavitt: 32:38

And everybody feeling like it was a good experience that they want to continue with. So, again, it really really goes back to communication, and I know people are probably tired of me saying that, but it's so true. You have to be able to have that open, honest communication and that is hard as fuck. It is hard. It is so hard to say something to your partner that you know is going to hurt their feelings.

Carrie Jeroslow: 33:08

So scary.

Jo Leavitt: 33:10

It is, but it's needed. It's needed to grow, like you're not saying at, you're not giving that honesty out of anger, out of hostility or out of anything except for the desire to love your partner and to grow into your relationship. So it really requires that open, honest communication and it requires you sharing your feelings with your partner at every step of the way. And so when you're feeling jealous because that shit's going to happen, you talk about it and you say, well, what were the triggers, what brought that up for me, and what did we enjoy about this experience? And what did we not enjoy about this experience and what can we learn from it and how can we move forward. I try to encourage people to not see any situation in terms of good or bad, but just in terms of what can we learn and how can we move forward.

Carrie Jeroslow: 34:04

Right, it's so helpful. And then it takes all the judgment that people are scared to feel, or that's a lot of people show other people's judgment, so it's like it's neither good or bad. It's your experience. Your experience is valid. Let's talk about it and move forward.

Jo Leavitt: 34:23

Absolutely so. Communication is definitely important and the other thing I think that's equally important is trust and respect. So that means that if your partner is feeling a certain way about something and not ready for something yet, then you need to respect where they are in their journey. And it's typically a rule of thumb that you go as at the pace of the slower partner, so you go at their comfort level instead of the person that is all involved to the wall. You have to go at the pace of the less comfortable partner, but I also encourage that less comfortable partner to push themselves a little bit. Change doesn't happen in your comfort zone.

Carrie Jeroslow: 35:11

So true, so true. Yeah, and I love that you say that, because I think it is again the compromise. We don't want to push someone too much if they're not ready, but at the same time we want to be stretching and expanding, and so it's a dance. It's a delicate dance and again, why I love the idea of working with a coach like Joe? Because one is, I think of it as like a doctor.

Carrie Jeroslow: 35:44

A doctor sees thousands of patients, so they know if someone comes in with a sore shoulder, they have more perspective of what's common, what's not common. We're just sitting here with a sore shoulder going oh my God, I'm the only one with a sore shoulder. This must mean this. But if you're working with a coach who has so much experience with different kinds of scenarios, I think that there's a comfort level in that to bring. Like, no, this is normal. And I'm going to just kind of gently push you up to expand a little bit and explore, and I'm going to hold you back a little bit to see your partner, because you love that partner and that delicate dance.

Jo Leavitt: 36:28

Absolutely, and that is also why it's so important, before you start, to know your why, like know the reason why you're doing this, because when things get icky and they get sticky and they get hard, if I come to you and you're like I don't think I'm ready for this, then I'm going to ask you well, what made you want to start? What was your why? Let's talk about your why, because that can help you identify, like, where your boundaries are and what you're not okay with, and help you identify what you are okay with but you're just scared, and we can also identify what those fears are.

Carrie Jeroslow: 37:05

Right, and I think maybe most people's ultimate fear is break up is and how do you see that working it? I mean, sometimes that happens. It's not fun or comfortable in the least bit, but it is. I can't sugarcoat around it, it is a possibility, right?

Jo Leavitt: 37:29

Absolutely. It is a possibility. Breakups happen and I'm also not going to tell you that I haven't seen instances where people have broken up in the lifestyle and gotten with the other person that they were swinging with Like they fell in love with somebody else. This relationship broke up and they ended up getting into a relationship with somebody else. It's a possibility. But it's also a possibility that your partner could meet somebody at the grocery store and fall in love with them, or they could meet somebody at work and fall in love with them. Like you don't own your partner and ultimately you should want them to be happy in whatever way fulfills them the most. And sometimes that's not you, and I know that sucks and I know that's hard, but that's also just the reality of it. So, yeah, for sure, it's definitely the big fear that a lot of people are going to have when they go in is like what if they replace me? And that's also where that confidence comes in, that acceptance in yourself is you knowing your worth and you don't have those fears as much?

Carrie Jeroslow: 38:37

Yes, and relationships are really. They are really wonderful and they're also tricky and can be challenging, regardless of what structure you are in or practicing. That is just how relationships are. We are the most intimate with that person and so a lot of stuff comes up and I think those people I see it in my kids, even my kids can be their absolute self around me, more than anyone else.

Carrie Jeroslow: 39:14

And a lot of times it's not the most beautiful part of them. A lot of times it is, but a lot of times it's they have to be on guard so much in their life that they come home and they just need to be them, and sometimes that's tantrums and those kind of things. So I appreciate you going there with me on that, because I don't think that we should sugar coat it. And there are times when, even in any kind of non-monogamous relationship or in a monogamous relationship, that you grow and find that this relationship I've grown in another direction and this person's grown in another direction and it's not together and there is a lot of times where this kind of experience can bring people together and can help us grow together. So I tend to always look at the worst case scenario and I think a lot of people do, but there's also could be a great case scenario that comes up from this experience.

Jo Leavitt: 40:16

Absolutely so I will tell you what I've seen is the people that have that communication and they have that trust and they have that respect and they're able to navigate the difficulties. It strengthens and intensifies their relationship so much Like the lifestyle, and swinging with my husband has brought our communication to a whole another level. It has brought our intimacy to a whole another level. It has brought our trust to a whole another level. Because you have to have that to allow your partner to go explore with somebody else and know that they're still going to come back to you or to believe that they are still going to come back to you. It takes a tremendous amount of trust and respect and acceptance and when your relationship has that and you're able to go get your needs filled and be happy and then bring that joy back to your relationship, it just exemplifies this joy. So it doesn't take away from your relationship.

Jo Leavitt: 41:24

And that's the thing that people don't realize about the lifestyle. Is you think that you're going to be outfucking other people because you want to be outfucking other people and it's going to pull something away from your relationship. And really, when you're doing it the right way, when you're doing it openly and honestly and you're sharing. It really has the opposite effect of that, because you're happier, you're more open, you're more honest. You don't fucking feel the need to hide. Yeah, that is huge. Like so many people are like, oh, am I attracted to that guy, but I can't tell my husband. Like, oh, I think he's hot, but I can't tell my husband. When you have that level of freedom in your relationship, you don't have to have those secrets.

Carrie Jeroslow: 42:09

Yeah.

Jo Leavitt: 42:10

That just creates this beautiful depth.

Carrie Jeroslow: 42:14

Yes, it's bonding, it's bonding.

Jo Leavitt: 42:17

It definitely is.

Carrie Jeroslow: 42:18

Yeah, oh, I love this conversation. I do want to ask this one question before we sign off. I want to know what myths about swinging myths, because these are all the assumptions right Of like people who have never done it, who are like, oh my God, it's just like they're in this dungeon which they could be, but they're just like always going out and having sex with all these other people. I mean, what are some of the myths that you find, and can you debunk them for us?

Jo Leavitt: 42:53

Yeah. So I will share a story. My daughter-in-law actually outed me at her bachelorette party. We were, she was a little stoned and we were playing like one of those cute little bachelorette party games where it's like have you ever, will you ever? And my card that I got was be with another girl, be with another woman.

Jo Leavitt: 43:18

And so of course I'm drinking and somebody notices and makes a comment about it and she sort of came out of her high stupor and she said are you in Chad's swingers? And like I don't have a good poker face at all, I don't lie, I don't think quickly on my feet. And so everybody else was like, oh yeah, we've kind of, we've kind of wondered about that too. And when I sort of confirmed it just because my face obviously like confirmed it, the first question that I get is so do you guys have key parties? And that's what everybody thinks it is is like this old 70s style version of swinging, which is where you know, several couples go to a house and they put their keys in a bowl and he's out and you drew, you go fuck them in the other room. Oh, I'm not going to say that key parties exist, but I am going to say that that is not the majority of swinging. The myths are that it's just a big, huge orgy.

Jo Leavitt: 44:25

The myths are that everybody that's in the lifestyle is just looking to fuck everybody else, or they're just looking to fuck someone, that it's just an excuse for them to cheat, and that's definitely not what it is. I'm trying to think of some other, you know it really like. The big myth is that it's just a big orgy, it's just a big free for all, and that could not be farther from the truth, because I will tell you that I feel safer at a swingers party than anywhere in public. I am safer from sexual assault at a swingers party than I am anywhere in public, because it's a community and because everybody there knows that consent is king and it is the most important thing. And if I'm ever feeling uncomfortable, I can say something, and it doesn't matter if other people know me or not. They're going to make sure that I am safe.

Carrie Jeroslow: 45:28

Right. I hear that in the BDSM and King community as well. Absolutely, it's way safer than anyone thinks because there's a code of ethics, there is an agreement that you go through, you know, before the play actually starts. I think also, broadening your definition of what swinging is and how it can show up for people makes it, yes, about the you know sex sometimes, but also about the eroticism of just seeing other people. Even you know watching other people have sex in real life, you know, is very erotic for some people and doesn't have anything to do with them having sex. There's just such a variety of how swinging could show up in someone's life.

Jo Leavitt: 46:17

Absolutely. And you know, we didn't even talk about singles in the swinging world, because that's a whole. Other thing is some people are just looking for a woman, or they're just looking for a man to bring into their bedroom, and so there's definitely a place for singles as well. In my opinion, you don't necessarily have to be coupled to be a swinger. You just have to be willing to accept sexuality on a non-normal, non-society, on those terms.

Carrie Jeroslow: 46:50

I love that you bring that up. I love that you bring that up because I talk a lot about the structure that I've called solo amary, which is, I want you know, my relationship with myself to be the most important one and to be prioritized, and this is a way for someone who's practicing solo amary to you know get sexual needs met and still maintain their single life Absolutely.

Jo Leavitt: 47:17

Yeah, and it gets everybody's needs filled because it gets that couple that's their desire, their fantasy, their wants and their desires. It gets those needs filled as well. And if it's as long as everybody is open and honest about it, then it's a great. It's a great situation, it can be a great situation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 47:36

Right, right. Well, one last question. First, I want to thank you so much. This has been so enlightening and I've learned so much. My question that I'd like to leave everyone with is what are your hopes and dreams for the swinging community in the next maybe 15, 20 years? How would you like to see the evolution of the swinging community travel experience evolve?

Jo Leavitt: 48:06

Yeah, I really just want it to be more known and more accepted. I love that LGBTQ plus has brought. There's been so much awareness brought to that and it's opened people's eyes up and it's made it so much more acceptable. And I really want the lifestyle in general including swinging, including polyamory, including BDSM, including all of those those different dynamics I want all of those to be understood and accepted. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to participate in it, for you to respect it and to accept it.

Carrie Jeroslow: 48:53

I love that. I love that and I know that you are doing your part with your podcast and your coaching, and so I thank you for doing that to further relationship diversity and the acceptance of it, and I want to encourage anyone who is interested in exploring either the swinging lifestyle or how to become more confident in your relationships to please go check out. Joe. She's got a 12 week one on one to one program called. You got to say it because it's a good. It's a good title.

Jo Leavitt: 49:31

Get out of your head and into their bed.

Carrie Jeroslow: 49:33

Get out of your head and into their bed. Ah, what a great thing to leave a great slogan. I love it and we will leave you with that. So if you have any interest to get out of your head and get into their bed, go check out, joe. All of her information will be in the show notes. Joe, thank you so much, thank you, Carrie.

Jo Leavitt: 49:55

This has been such a pleasure. It's been so much fun.

Carrie Jeroslow: 49:59

It has been. We'll have to do it again sometime.

Jo Leavitt: 50:01

Definitely.

Carrie Jeroslow: 50:31

The best thing about this program is that it's not just about the diversity, but it's about the diversity. It's what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster will shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my website, CarrieJeroslowcom, Instagram or Tiktok. Every relationship is as unique as you are.