Transcending Monogamy and Polyamory: A Deep Dive into Relational Freedom with Dr. Jorge Ferrer
Have you ever questioned the societal norms surrounding relationships? What if we gave ourselves the freedom to move beyond the labels of monogamy and polyamory, and instead, focused on the diverse and complex nature of relationships themselves?
In this week's episode, I engage in a thought-provoking conversation with Dr. Jorge Ferrer, a renowned clinical psychologist and author, who shares his fascinating journey through various relationship structures and his advocacy for relational freedom.
We dive into the heart of relationship diversity, challenging the entrenched binary thinking and fueling a discourse that encourages fluid identities and a more open-minded approach to relationships. With Dr. Ferrer, we unmask the evolution of relationships, shedding light on the shifting dynamics of masculinity and the indispensable role of honesty and openness in our intimate connections. The conversation doesn't stop there - we also explore the intriguing realms of identity, communication, boundaries, and ethical consent in relationships.
In our final segment, we delve into the healing potential of vulnerability and how it can pave the way for deeper, more intimate connections. Dr. Ferrer walks us through the transformative power of men's groups in understanding masculinity and sexuality, leading to more fulfilling relationships.
This is Relationships Reimagined.
Connect with Jorge:
Website | Love and Freedom Book | Jorge's Recent Ted Talk on Transcending Monogamy and Polyamory
Join me to be a part of this new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.
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Please note: I am not a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, or social worker. I am not attempting to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any physical, mental, or emotional issue, disease, or condition. The information provided in or through my podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment provided by your own Medical Provider or Mental Health Provider. Always seek the advice of your own Medical Provider and/or Mental Health Provider regarding any questions or concerns you have about your specific circumstance.
Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloamory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your Carrie Jeroslow, , bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our Conversation Series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation. Today I'll be talking with Dr Jorge Ferrer about transcending the labels of monogamy and polyamory to experience what he has coined relational freedom. We also talk about binary thinking, labels and the omega male. First, a little about him. Dr Jorge N Ferrer is a clinical psychologist, tedx speaker and educator. He was a professor of psychology for more than 20 years at California Institute of Integral Studies, san Francisco, where he also served as chair of the Department of East-West Psychology. Jorge is the author of Revisioning Transpersonal Theory a participatory vision of human spirituality, participation and the mystery of transpersonal essays in psychology, education and religion, and love and freedom, transcending monogamy and polyamory, as well as others, both in English and Spanish. His writings on alternative intimate relationships have also appeared in journals such as Sexuality and Culture and Psychology and Sexuality, as well as featured in numerous popular podcasts, websites and magazines. Jorge was a member of the Esalon Institute's Center for Theory and Research, where he also taught workshops on embodied spirituality. In his international private practice, he offers professional counseling to individuals and couples focused on the management of jealousy, infidelities, sexual incompatibilities, open relationships and the design of more satisfying intimate relationships. Jorge received the Fezter Presidential Award for his seminal work on consciousness studies and was selected as an advisor to the Religions for Peace Organization at the United Nations. Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I've got an amazing guest for you today. I am so excited about this conversation Today. I have Jorge Ferrer here. He is a clinical psychologist and author and educator. Here is what I'm most excited about is that when I was introduced to your work, i found a resonance in your message and my message. It's almost the first time that I really heard someone talk about it in the way that I do, although we use maybe a little bit of different terminology and vocabulary. I'm super excited to go deeper into this idea of relationship, diversity, relational freedom, and we're going to get all into it. First, welcome, jorge, to the podcast. I'm so excited you're here.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Thank you so much, Carrie. I'm super excited to be here. You part also because of what you just said. I've interviewed many, very often on the book and on these topics, but I rarely found authors and interviewers like you whose perspective feels so aligned to my proposal. I was not aware of your work and your podcast when I wrote my book, so I was like rats. I just have really built on a lot of what you are doing and saying. Thank you so much.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, oh, right on. Well, i believe that we came into each other's sphere exactly when we were meant to, for some reason we may not understand. How I love to start these conversations is to learn more about you, because I always believe that our life forms what we do in the world, especially this kind of work. There's got to be a story that got you interested in this idea of relational freedom. Can you tell us a little bit about your story?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, Well, what I can start by saying that all this began when I had my first aesthetic girlfriend in Barcelona. I'm from Barcelona, from Spain. We were super in love with each other. It was a beautiful connection And when they were walking in the streets of Barcelona with her, I had this realization Why being in love in this amazing connection with this amazing woman means that I cannot love, or being loved by any of the five billion people populated in the planet at that time were eight billion now right, And that kind of pushed me into this kind of crisis to some extent. At that time in Barcelona there was no terminology for open relationships or polyamory. It was the default and anyone who would deviate from monogamy they were like seeing as someone that needed help or someone had like some issues, or kind of pathologize.Carrie Jeroslow:
What year was that? I'd love to get like an idea, just perspective of time.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, that could be like in, i would say, in the early 90s, 1990, 1989, late 80s, the beginning of the 90s. So it took me years and getting to know some really wonderful people in Barcelona who were like living an open relationship for some time And I found them like super rational and like a split-way deep And I and ultimately they invited me to enter into a relationship with them, with her in particular. So she had two primary partners, her partner and me, and we went on for almost three years. They were very split-way people. So my entry into alternative relationships was very different than what. How people entered today into polyamory. It was very split-way, very deep, very meaningful at many different levels. And then later I went into San Francisco Bay Area to pursue my doctoral degree And then I came out as a polyman and I lived open relationships, polyamory, for almost 10 years And then later, after some time of celibacy three years of celibacy I wanted to live in for another almost 10 years like monogamous relationships. I felt like what's now? I want to see what's what's there for me in monogamy. And then at some point I realized that I could live both relational styles without serious fears or conflicts And that I was free to love one way or the other, depending on the life that comes to me. And in that way I felt I started to feel like moving beyond that binary. I started constructing the binary monopoly in my own life And I realized that there was like a freedom there that they call a relational freedom, the freedom to choose one or another style or others, like solo polyamory, as you mentioned in your guide and in your work, or even a sexual romantic relationship, whatever you are still called, you know, and I felt really called to lag, you know, to my praise to legitimize the greatest array of relational options you know possible in our society, while also keeping grounds for making qualitative distinctions, making grounds for making, like some, you know, not anything goes. You know there are some forms of polyamory or monogamy that are more mindful, more ethic than others, for example. So it's not that one style is better than the other as a whole, depending on how it is lived, and also you have written about that, you know. So that's a bit of the story. And this day, like I find myself like I'm not into any partnership, but I find myself like, like enjoying my time with friends and family especially, and work, but also open to life. So that's a nutshell.Carrie Jeroslow:
Well, i love that And I wonder If I think sometimes, you know, with age comes perspective. So you know, i'm much different in my fifties than I was in my thirties. And then, you know, with all of that time behind me, i have more perspective of how life, how you travel, how one travels through life and experiences different kinds of near times when I was on my own, whether I wanted to be or not. There were times when I was in monogamy, open relationships, polyamory, and that I guess openness to ride the fluidity of life, because, right, life is constantly changing. So I've found that, i don't know why, it just came into my mind, like when you have more of your story to tell, you can see more of the travel through the different kinds of, i guess, labels, of what maybe it was. But this leads me to a question And I'm curious if you have any like research behind this. But this is the that people tend to gravitate towards binary thinking, okay, and is that biological? Is that cultural or societal programming? Like, why is that? is it because that's what we've been, you know, grown up with? Like, why do we tend to go more towards a, if not this, then this? so binary thinking, but also the idea of labels, of like needing labels to feel safe. So those are two kind of big questions, but wondering if you have any thoughts on?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, the first question I would say is, like you know, there is a whole philosophical current in the Western philosophy called structuralism or leviate straws and anthropology, that they would make that case, that the human mind tends to make sense of reality through the creation of binaries. You know, like man, woman, man, moon, white, black, you know, but also like also post-modern authors later say, like, there is one more step that is not just a binary, it's a binary hierarchy. We tend always to privilege one terms of the binary, like men over female in patriarchy, right Or white over black in races. You know, and that's part of the problematic ethos of Western culture. In other cultures, like, there is a lot of binaries too, but they tend to see them more in complementary terms, like the Jin Zhang, or like also in Amerindian and the spirituality in African spirituality. You know so it's more of African culture. You know so the hierarchical ethos seems to be more Western. But I would say that, like, life is not binary, life is not black or white, life is multicolor. So by doing that, you know, we were kind of like, maybe creating certain structures that help us to navigate certain things in life but ultimately also prevent us from living, i would say, a richer life free from that kind of hierarchies, but also, as I argue in the book, you know like they create a lot of like a struggle between, for example, people who are monogamous and people who are polyamorous, because they tend to look down at each other, they tend to be still superior to the other camp and they tend to like patronize each other or condense another in so many different ways. So that's a sad thing.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, and I love how you talk about we'll get to the other thing but I wanna say like I love this idea of the monopoly wars, the way you talking about that, and I find that even in polyamory, even in monogamy, that there is like you're not doing poly right, you're not doing it the way that it should be done, and so you know, it's like there's more comfort in even though it's unhealthy, but there's more comfort in like hitting people against people. And this idea of relational freedom and why I was so, i'm so inspired by this idea of relationship diversity is that it celebrates you for being you and like more power to you and then more power to me, and I'm not like you. You're not like me and we can find commonalities, but it's a matter of going from your wrong and I'm right, the binary, to your right, and I'm right because we're just being us.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, it is very sad, you know, and in terms of the mono-jazzmen, so you have a whole history behind religious, cultural, you know, like hundreds, probably millennia of conditioning, you know. But then, in terms of the polyamory, my reading of that is like it happens with a lot of like minorities or repressed movements, happens with the gay movement, with the feminist movement. The first waves come with pride. The first waves of this emotional movement comes with the need to say like hey, no, we are superior somehow, we're more evolved, we love without limits. You are hypocritical because you want to do what we were doing and you are not doing it like you. Monarhamos, people, they need to reaffirm themselves in that way. But my sense that with time things will kind of relax and people I think my work, like yours is like I think, are small contributions to you know, create a society, a culture in which people really can celebrate each other's choices. And if I have one choice, i don't have to say that it's better than yours or worse, worse for me is and at the same time, of course, like we need to pay attention to choices that could be harmful to other people. No, harm is a very important thing and that's tricky too. It's tricky too, depending on context, depending on situations, but it's like I always say, like just let's live very diversely, but with discernment. That's important for me.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, so I love that point that you said about you know, it's like the evolution of diverse relationships. Is that, holly pride right? Is that? like you know, i have been wronged for so long and this is a reaction to, you know, having been put aside as wrong or bad or different, and so then there's like a leveling out that eventually happens and interesting, i see this in the Gen Z and Gen Alpha, so my children are in that generation and the fluidity of like not wanting to be, just like being who they are, and maybe that's why there's just so many different terms that have come up to express identity. So I have this like hopeful feeling that we're moving in a better direction, specifically with this the fluidity of these next generations who are really just coming into the world. And you know, like my 14 year old has always been the kind of person who's like I am just who I am. I am just who I am, so accepted or don't doesn't matter.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
I know, it's so true, the new generations that have less need for that kind of like identifying themselves in these binary categories or these like boxes, you know, like more freedom to be fluid. You know, and I think that's something to celebrate. They're the bangwards, you know, of evolution. You know we're just like trying to applying to issues and want to support that kind of impulses, you know.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, yeah, And to get to that place that we were talking about, which is the, you know, as you talk about transcending you used to talk about transcending monogamy and polyamory right, Or transcending labels How do we, how do you see us getting there? You know, with the, I guess, vast majority of people who really feel comfort in labels Labels gives us a place to connect to others, community, And, you know, I think that someone needs to be very creative to and self, you know, confident, confidence and worthiness to transcend those labels. How do you see us getting there?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, it's interesting because when I first started writing about this movement beyond Monogram and Polyamory, like, or 20 years ago in California actually, i decided not to use any new term for that movement. But later I got persuaded, you know, by many people, that sometimes new terms could be also emancipatory and liberating, because it provides, you know, like, sense of belonging, a sense of like, share, political identity, capable of community social action, for example. No, and so I would say like, so in my book I leave things open, like, like, if you want to use a term, i propose Novogamy, new Union, but at the same time I have several attachment to that term. Other people use some Biaemmary sometimes, or other people prefer not to use any term, and I think it's good to have all the options also open, depending on different circumstances. Different people may find the need to you know, like, when people ask you, are you Polyamorous or Monogamos, a question that I have been feeling for many years as extremely oppressive because I couldn't identify myself with any then I can say, well, no, i'm Novogamos. I have a response, you know, and then say, oh, what is that? And then I explain it, you know. Otherwise it's like well, i'm not one or the other, you know. So sometimes the use of terms are helpful. The problem with new terms is that it can also become like new canons and some people can start to do what, like you know the monopoly right do you're like saying, well, novogam is better than the other two, and that's ridiculous And that's the whole. That's not the whole point, you know. Of course, from a Buddhist perspective or a deeply spiritual perspective, you know, like this kind of like attachment to fixed identities, you know It's considered as one of the causes of suffering. You know, in the Buddhist world, you know. So there is something about like also a sense of security, a sense of belonging, that when a Buddhist perspective, they say like well, we would be better off without that and just be like I'm, like I'm more in a dower. It's like fluid flowing and being able to change hearts and depending on what life brings to us, you know. But at the same time, i think it's better to leave both options open, like to have people who can choose terms and people who don't need to choose terms, and that's totally okay.Carrie Jeroslow:
Right, transcending identity almost. I mean, it's like, you know, sometimes you use the labels, sometimes you don't, and that's okay. It's all kind of the same idea, different, you know, different circumstance. I love that because I found that when I identify so strongly with something I've talked about before in this podcast, how, when I worked for Blue Man Group the show and I worked for them for 12 years and so much of my identity was wrapped up in that job And when I left and I left of my own, you know, choosing I still had a massive identity crisis. And I'm even finding this as I'm watching, you know, this Holly world develop of people who have, you know, built a lot of their platforms on Holly Amory and then decide that they want to in their life because of what life has brought them. They've wanted to try other relationship structures And there is kind of an identity crisis or there's a lot of backlash And so, you know, so it's like I'm okay to identify as that right now, but that's not the truth of who I am. Who am I, which I guess is more of that. You know, buddhist mentality.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yeah, exactly, and that's why in my book I take so much effort into the constructing that binary. Many different ways, you know, i'll really talk about these developmental pathways that we speak like in different moments of our lives. You know, we're having both one or poly, you know, and we need to attune to our changing needs and desires, you know. But also it's interesting to look at our inner diversity, you know, like I know, many people who believe in intellectual and monogamy and they want monogamy in their hearts, but sexually they really want a diversity of lovers, you know. Or other people who believe in polyamory, but sexually, when they meet, they can only be sexual with one person, you know. So are you a monor poly, depending on which part of yourself you ask, you know, or also depending on where you are. I know some people who are strictly monogamous at home couples, and then they go to a Barney Gowan festival or when they travel apart and give each other free passes. So are they monor poly, depending on where they are, you know? so there are many different ways in which the dichotomy can be reconstructed. You know, the dichotomy is. One funny anecdote is that I knew like a professor of the study of dreams in my university and he was a lucid dreamer. Okay, so he married another lucid dreamer, another researcher of dreams. So they had to discuss if the monogamous vow extended to the dream world, the dream world they both had been able to have sexual encounters with oneric figures. You know, dream figures you know in the past. So they disagreed. He said like no, no, that's not real, i still want to have. And then he said like no, no, no, i want the monogamous vow to extend, that you know. So it can also be like you can be monor poly in different experiential realities, you know.Carrie Jeroslow:
Right, and so those attributes. There's a coexisting aspect to it. I can be this and this, and it sounds like that's a really cool anecdote for one, because I love lucid dreaming and I have had as real experiences in the dream world that makes me think maybe this is all a big dream, totally Yeah, and it just sounds like you know, and I think I'm sure you coach this way and I coach this way is that it's about communicating. It's about getting really clear, not having assumptions about anything, and really getting having clear communication with yourself first and foremost, then with another person or other people, or you know, groups of people that you feel you are in relationship with, to really get clear on what feels good, what doesn't feel good and where the boundaries are, and you know so that it is all ethical and consensual as much as possible.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Exactly exactly. And the challenge I see in my clinical practice. normally because you know my approach, i'm not trying to bring people into open relationships or monogamy or polyamory and reattain to what's truth for these two people individually as a couple, you know, and the normal challenge that one of the two people had been married together or together for many years, one to open the relationship and the other is not so prone to do so. And that's what I find a lot and, interestingly, most of the clients, most of the couples I see it's the females these days that are trying to open the relationships. What is quite interesting, makes me wonder maybe because the guys are still sitting more and they don't need the? they don't need the, they don't feel the need to have this conversation because they're already doing it in the ability mode that I don't favor and I don't support, you know. But I find it fascinating like it's like so many women today that are pushing in that direction, you know.Carrie Jeroslow:
And has that. Do you think that that is newer or do you think that it has? or maybe women have always had the desire, but now are feeling like they're able to express it, or what is your thoughts on that?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
I would say that it has been an evolution like seems like for many centuries, like our human modern society was organized as division of labor the women would stay at home with children, The guy, the man, would be working and also normally having affairs or even going to prostitutes. I mean, that has been the history for centuries. But with the entry of women in the labor market, the invention of the pill, the empowerment of women, the feminist movement, all these, what is still like leaving the consequence for that? you know, we're still giving various steps to understand the new relational paradigm and panorama. you know, after the liberation of women. So what they find is that more and more women, they are less tolerant, they value more their autonomy and they're less tolerant to have any men to tell them what to do or not to do with their bodies. And that's how I think it's profoundly liberating and, of course, also can bring a lot of tension, especially in traditional marriages.Carrie Jeroslow:
Wow, yeah, there is an evolution going on, and another thing that I actually want to ask you about that I love that you talk about, it reminds me is about the alpha male as opposed to the omega male or masculine, and I love that because I happen to have very I guess I would call it omega men in my life. My brothers, my partners, my sons are, you know, very aware of their feelings and able to communicate them, also confidence within themselves that there's not this power over, and so I feel really blessed because I think that I've had a lot of experience. And then, when I worked for Blue Man Group, the three creators were also seemed to be, you know, very aware and able to express their feelings. So can you lead us through this difference between the alpha male and the omega male and talk us through that?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yeah, yeah, we need a whole podcast for that A whole other podcast, part two. But what I would say is that I just want to say, very importantly, like, my intention is never to demonize alpha males, many alpha males. You know that good men like that have learned to acquire those values in their culture. They're the traits of maleness that our culture has favored, also for decades and centuries, you know. But they are traits that are becoming in many ways obsolete. You know, in terms of the domination of women, control of women, like both socially, like met garden behavior, like the jealousy, like you know, like it's the kind of guy that wouldn't allow their wives or their partners to have other male friends. Sometimes, you know And this is changing, of course, with time, tremendously and quickly. This is great news, you know, but normally there is also a sense of insecurity behind that is compensated by this kind of like posture. It's kind of, as you say, it's a power over. You know that's power over also, not only women but other men, is a social status, you know. And also they feel entitled. They feel entitled over, like cheating, for example, because after all, they are guys. That's what guys, real men, do. I mean, this is the kind of ethos there, you know, and I have friends who have heard these things and pretty, all beautiful men, and they've heard these things from them And like, wow, you know, like still that's very operative in our culture, you know, and what I call the Omega Man is someone who has kind of like shifted this kind of identity And it's really into like the eth of sort of like creating harmonious relationship with both men and women. You know, like being part of a team, like being real equals, you know, like not equals in the sense of identical. That's one of the fallacies of the sometimes the gender equality movement. You know, we're different but complementary. We can learn from each other, you know, but definitely we are equal in the same of value. And then the honesty, and also that has implications for sexuality. You know, like the encounter is not about that kind of domination of women, like alpha males, for example, are super concerned about like erection, you know. If they don't have an erection. They feel failures, you know. But the Col Omega Men are more relaxed about that, you know, like, of course, if it's like an ongoing issue, you need to take into it. But just be open to what's true. Maybe in this moment your penis doesn't want to come out and you try your body and then you explore different forms of sexuality in that way, without shame and without, you know, feeling a failure, you know. And of course women also need to go through that revolution, many women inside, because I know I have men who have been shamed by women because they didn't have an erection, you know. So those kind of traits also internalize in many women, you know, in our society. But there is a lot of progress. There is a lot of progress in that direction. So I'm very hopeful.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, and I find that you know anyone. I know we're talking about the masculine. The masculine, you know, toxic masculinity, i guess, is what people are calling it. But I really look at it more as a woundedness. A woundedness that starts very young, that is taught, that is taken on the subconscious level and comes out in that. You know, in that, and I think females can have toxic masculinity too. You know, like we, you know we have been told like we have to get ahead in life or push ourselves to measure up to men because we're not paid. You know the same amount And you know so. Then we women can get into this. You know experience of a woundedness, and so I guess for me it comes back to doing your inner work and healing inner child healing or shadow healing or however you wanna look at it. But really going within, doing our healing work, and when we are more, you know, when we feel that worthiness and I am enough, then the need to have power over someone disappears, cause it's like I just know I'm okay and I'm enough.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Exactly, and they need to show off or they need to, like, pick up the size of your penis. So, alpha male thing like, interestingly, what has happened, found out in my clinical practice and also a couple of the friends that are sexologists and I in Spain I know that places and they have corroborated that that many, many alpha males not all but huge and increasing percentage at some point they start experimenting importance problems. And this is very interesting because for me, what it tells me is that in a way, their physiological vital energy is helping them to go back to the wounding. You know. It's like saying, like listen, you're having, you've seen, all this energy for your own gratification and your own whatever agenda you have in your mind from that place in security and goodness. And now we are on a strike down here And many of these men have accompanied some of these men and when they do that transformation of their sexuality, it's beautiful. It's beautiful because they will learn to be sexually a different way and then they feel so relieved that they don't have to perform all the time and be the super amazing level all the time. And it's so beautiful. It brings tears to my eyes because I have some memories of some of these men and I think some of the men's groups, like healthy men's groups that exist today, are soon in a very important functioning that they are.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, and that getting to that place and seeing the vulnerability in a sensual setting is to me more sensual and sexy than you know. then performance I want to see heart and, and I've you know, think that there are more transcendent opportunities for those kind of connections.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, i mean that vulnerability is a threshold for a deeper, intimate connection with another person. That is one of the one I want to create, like the kind of like a fertile ground for real love making versus performative sexual.Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, this kind of healing work not only helps relationships but also will help, i think, heal the divisiveness of what's going on in the world that when we can get to the place where we don't need to prove our worthiness and however that comes out, that we can come together in relationships, in any kind of connection with another person, to honor who they are, because we feel honored within ourselves. And so there's the work. So how do people reach out to you if they want to do this kind of work? and specifically, i want to send out to listeners who are, you know, really looking at the masculine, the masculine side of you, regardless of what gender or gender orientation you have, healing that and they want to reach out to you. or hey, how do they do that?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yeah, how about a webpage and send it to you? but it's JorgeNPerrercom. Okay, we'll link that. I'm not sure if you want to reach to me like an email too, but it's in the webpage. So, and but yeah, i think it's like, yeah, really filled out when I am approached by men that they want to really change their ways, you know, because they are realizing that, you know that they are suffering, they're suffering with a constant pressure. You know, of course, also my international practice happens on Zoom online, but I also have workshops, you know, and kind of on the sexuality and spirituality percential workshops, like also internationally here in Ibiza, but the next one is in Mexico, the F and I will be another one in Tuscany in Italy in October, and in my webpage there's information about all that, because there is also as much as one can do, also in certain cases on a verbal level. There's a lot we can do as therapists, as you know. You know talking and supporting, but there are certain chips, especially when they are installing the primary world in the instinctive world. That is normally only with practice that involves some kind of physical contact and very supportive physical contact that we can really, really access and make the ships like from from the foundation, you know, from from the deep, deep down, is the same as with questions of sexual abuse. You know, and sometimes many alpha male have been sexually abused And sexual abuse like. There is so much, a lot of work you can do. You know, cognitively, mentally, emotionally, but there is the real healing only happens when you, when you hold it in your hands, you know it's without of respect and guidance and structure. You know it's like the person with a sexual abuse wound And they need to go through all the layers of woundedness and then tap into the energy of life. You know that is. You know sexual energy is energy of life, is the healing and regenerated in itself. But in those cases is kind of like this a lot of like mad and a lot of layers of pain and trauma, and then going little by little through all these layers and allowing them for catharsis and like support, and then until you just hit, you know where it's almost like when you are like drilling with oil that I'm drilling with oil in general in the world during your own and then suddenly just hit and then and then the healing happens from within. It's only your own sexual energy, that deep sexual energy that's going to heal the wounding from within up. You know now no one is going to kill it for you. You know you can't just be distressed. Any sexual healer or therapist that tells you I'm gonna heal you if you have sex with me become very suspicious and I haven't heard of it. Yeah, even like some ayahuasca and like spiritual teachers like the. I mean it's a form of abuse of power and, ultimately, sexual abuse.Carrie Jeroslow:
Right.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Sometimes with delusional beliefs that they may have, you know, but it's your sexual energy that the pure is the essence that makes the tapping to and yeah, and I love I was gonna say I love that idea of doing a retreat.Carrie Jeroslow:
I know anytime I have done a retreat and have pulled myself out of my world for days or a week and really just you know it's such a gift to give to yourself, to go somewhere where there is supportive energy and then again you get the somatic, you know experience of you know focused healing work. and what better place than Tuscany, i'd like to go. So, absolutely, if you are at a place where you're feeling you know that, that you're needing and wanting some focused healing work, please go check out Jorge's retreats that he's going to be working, you know doing. And then also, i really want to push people towards your decision making through the book Love and Freedom transcending monogamy in polyamory And we're going to have that link In the show notes because I'm almost through the book and I am amazed at all of the insightful conclusions through your research that you've come up with. And this idea of Novak Novakami Is that how you say? it are right, it doesn't roll off my tongue yet, but I love the concept of it, of new way of coming together, new way of uniting with another, and so, and then that, and then do you go into the alpha and the omega, male in that book?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Yes, absolutely. It's a whole appendix on the alpha, omega and like with a kind of table with distinctions in different levels sexually, relationship with women who are like monogamous, alpha, monogamous omega, polyamorous alpha, polyamorous omega, because you have everything everywhere.Carrie Jeroslow:
Okay, so I have yet to get to that point, so I can't wait to read that. And and really the other thing that I love about this book is this idea of relational freedom. So if you resonate with this podcast and the idea that every relationship is as unique as you are and that you can you really can create this experience for you in your lifetime of riding the fluidity in between transcending these labels, then please check out Love and Freedom. Jorge, thank you so much for being a part of this. Is there anything else you want to leave with us?Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
I will just say the most important I say in my book is to know yourself. You pointed that to know yourself and to be attuned to your changing needs and dispositions, to live your truth as much as possible and to be open to the synchronities of life and live your truth with passion, but also always be mindful of the impact of your actions on other people. You know that's very, very important.Carrie Jeroslow:
Amazing words to end with. I love all of those. Those are your three tips right there. Thank you so much, and I know you and I will be in touch for a long while.Dr. Jorge Ferrer:
Thank you so much. This was wonderful Thanks.Carrie Jeroslow:
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